[lll75248]

In our system, we use 13-15 1NT. However, in third seat we may open light, so we announce our range as 11-15. Recently an opponent challenged that 1N can only have 4 HCP range, and the director agreed.

My question is,
a. is it illegal to have a 11-15 range 1N opening?
b. is it legal (and ethical) to put our range as 13-15 on convention card, but alert that we might open light in third seat?

Thankd for the help in advance.

[wank]

you need to say where you're from. each country has its own quirky little regulations, however, i go 7-1 that your opponent didn't pull this regulation from up his bottom.

[blackshoe]

We do ask posters to say what the jurisdiction is, but the odds are pretty good that he's in the US, where the pertinent regulation lists as allowed: ALL CALLS AFTER A NATURAL NOTRUMP opening bid or direct overcall, EXCEPT for natural notrump opening bids or overcalls with a lower limit of fewer than 10 HCP or with a range of greater than 5 HCP (including those that have two non-consecutive ranges). See #7 under DISALLOWED.

#7 under disallowed says: "CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES, REBIDS AND A CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE TO AN OPPONENT’S CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE after natural notrump opening bids or overcalls with a lower limit of fewer than 10 HCP or with a range of greater than 5 HCP (including those that have two non-consecutive ranges) and weak two-bids which by partnership agreement are not within a range of 7 HCP and do not show at least five cards in the suit".

IOW, you can playing any range you like for a natural 1NT opening, but you cannot agree conventional responses if it has a lower limit of less then 10 HCP* or a range greater than 5 HCP. The OP's opponent was mistaken, and the director was entirely too credulous. Next time, ask him to show you the regulation in writing.

Specifically, the answers to the two questions asked are, in the ACBL, 1) no, an 11-15 range for 1NT is not illegal and you are permitted conventional responses to it, and 2) there are two lines on the convention card for 1NT range. I would write 13-15 (1st, 2nd, 4th seat) on one line and 11-15 (3rd seat) on the other. I suppose you could leave out the seat information on the first line - and btw, the inclusion of "4th seat" there is an assumption - if your range in 4th seat is not 13-15, include what it is on the card. Announce 11-15 for third (and fourth if appropriate) seat openings and 13-15 otherwise.

* In practice, if you agree a lower limit of 10 points, but you one day pick up a hand with a very good nine points and decide to upgrade it to 10, the director will take the bid as proof that you have an agreement to open on nine HCP, and no amount of arguing will change his mind. So don't do it.

[gordontd]

wank, on 2013-June-03, 20:39, said:

you need to say where you're from. each country has its own quirky little regulations, however, i go 7-1 that your opponent didn't pull this regulation from up his bottom.

I had someone here in England say something like this the other day; that regulation changed more than 20 years ago.

[barmar]

The question that occasionally comes up about this regulation is what do they mean by "range of greater than 5 HCP"? Does it mean top-bottom > 5 (so 11-15 is a 4 HCP range), or does it mean there are 5 different HCP values in the range (11, 12, 13, 14, 15 is 5)? I believe the latter, because it's the interpretation that makes the most sense when dealing with split ranges.

But either way, 11-15 is acceptable.

[mycroft]

Absolutely the latter, because 11-12 isn't a "one point range", and 11 exactly isn't a "zero point range". At least not in any way that makes sense to anybody who isn't a mathematician.

[we had this exact question asked during a TD meeting, and that way of explaining the answer; so I would say at least in the ACBL, 11-15 is a 5-HCP range.]

[campboy]

mycroft, on 2013-June-04, 11:04, said:

Absolutely the latter, because 11-12 isn't a "one point range", and 11 exactly isn't a "zero point range". At least not in any way that makes sense to anybody who isn't a mathematician.

Not in any way that makes sense to a mathematician, either, since HCP are discrete.

[blackshoe]

campboy, on 2013-June-04, 12:18, said:

Not in any way that makes sense to a mathematician, either, since HCP are discrete.

Mine aren't; they're always gossiping .

[RMB1]

campboy, on 2013-June-04, 12:18, said:

Not in any way that makes sense to a mathematician, either, since HCP are discrete.

But I suspect you are discrete mathematician - even in the sense blackshoe uses.

[chrism]

mycroft, on 2013-June-04, 11:04, said:

Absolutely the latter, because 11-12 isn't a "one point range", and 11 exactly isn't a "zero point range". At least not in any way that makes sense to anybody who isn't a mathematician.

[we had this exact question asked during a TD meeting, and that way of explaining the answer; so I would say at least in the ACBL, 11-15 is a 5-HCP range.]

I agree that 11-15 is a 5-HCP range; the question is whether "11-13 OR 16-17" is a 5-point range (11,12,13,16,17) or a 7-point range (11 to 17 inclusive). My interpretation is the latter; defenses to a NT are likely to need to handle the weakest and strongest hands that could open 1NT, whether or not all balanced hands in between are also systemic 1NT openings.

And just to clarify, this refers to a SPLIT range, not a variable range. The latter is a different range based on some combination of position and vulnerability; the former is a non-contiguous set(*) of ranges, where any balanced hand falling into any of the ranges will normally be opened 1NT.

(*) In my experience, always a pair of ranges. A 3-way split like 8-10 or 13-15 or 18-19 is theoretically possible, but I can't imagine how to build a system around it, given the ACBL proscription of conventional responses and continuations.

[blackshoe]

I suspect that's another of those questions for which, if you ask six people at HQ, you'll get ten different answers.

[aguahombre]

Split ranges are addressed in the charts explicitly, so we just need to read them.

[chrism]

aguahombre, on 2013-June-04, 18:27, said:

Split ranges are addressed in the charts explicitly, so we just need to read them.

From the ABL GCC, allowed responses and rebids:
10. ALL CALLS AFTER A NATURAL NOTRUMP opening bid or direct overcall, EXCEPT for natural notrump opening bids or overcalls with a lower limit of fewer than 10 HCP or with a range of greater than 5 HCP (including those that have two non-consecutive ranges) ...

There as an ambiguity about the meaning of "range" in that context; I like my interpretation but a good lawyer could probably tear me to shreds

[aguahombre]

the ambiguity is cleared up if you compare the wording in the Mid-Chart. Two 3-point split ranges are a go for using conventions in Mid-Chart. Then we go back to the GCC and see that the prohibitions include split ranges spanning more than 5 HCP.

[blackshoe]

I agree with Chrism about the ambiguity. Not sure I agree with his interpretation, though he makes a good argument for it. Not sure I disagree either. The other possible interpretation, of course, is that they mean the sum of the ranges, so 11-13 or 16-17 is five points (3+2). The intent could be either, I think.

[chrism]

aguahombre's observation on the Mid-Chart has me persuaded, and I recant my interpretation. It is a shame that the committee that decides on the wording in the charts was not better trained in writing clear and unambiguous English, but doubtless they were following the example of the authors of the Laws. And it all helps to keep directors employed ...