[rhm]

ArtK78, on 2013-January-11, 07:17, said:

I assume that you were on some sort of mind altering drugs when you typed this.

Come on who is on drugs here?
As Gnasher pointed out 2♠ is quite wide ranging and the hand, holding a heart void, will look much better when getting jump raised.
You jump to game, because you think you have more than an invitation. The jump is limited but not weak after a preempt.

What would you do with

♠KJxxxx
♥-
♦KQTx
♣AKx

I would certainly not pass when getting raised to 4♠.

Rainer Herrmann

[ArtK78]

rhm, on 2013-January-11, 07:45, said:

Come on who is on drugs here?
As Gnasher pointed out 2♠ is quite wide ranging and the hand, holding a heart void, will look much better when getting jump raised.
You jump to game, because you think you have more than an invitation. The jump is limited but not weak after a preempt.

What would you do with

♠KJxxxx
♥-
♦KQTx
♣AKx

I would certainly not pass when getting raised to 4♠.

Rainer Herrmann

4♠ is a sign off. If I am raising to 4♠ based on power and I am willing to explore for slam opposite a suitable hand, I bid 3♥ first on my way to game.

4♠ could be based on a hand like:

QTxxx
xxx
xxx
xx

It is not too likely given the lack of opponents' bidding over 2♠, but it is possible.

Your statement that 4♠ is not weak after a preempt is not correct. It is not weak by agreement, but it shows a desire to play in 4♠. In other words, it could be weak.

The 2♠ bid is sound in all cases. What partner bids at his turn is based on common sense. With long spades and a weak hand he will bid game.

Is it possible to miss a good slam if you bid 2♠ on the hand that you present and partner jumps to 4♠? Perhaps. But it is too dangerous to move over 4♠. You could be turning a plus into a minus.

I consider bidding on by the overcaller over partner's jump to 4♠ to be a breach in partnership discipline. What you are saying is either your overcall of 2♠ was wrong or partner's jump to 4♠ was wrong.

[Codo]

No Art, 4 ♠ shows a desire to play 4 ♠ but why should I have this desire with a weak hand over (2♥) 2♠ (pass)?
So it is not impossible that partner will bid on.

Of course anything is possible if you play a style where 2 NT, 3 ♥ and 3 ♠ (f.e.) are more or less strong raises, but I doubt that this is true for the OP.

[rhm]

Note, that opposite my suggested hand

♠KJxxxx
♥-
♦KQTx
♣AKx

slam would be quite reasonable if you exchange in the opening hand the ♥A for the ♠A.

♠A742
♥KJ87
♦4
♣QT87

a more reasonable 4♠ bid and a bit weak for a splinter of 4♦.

Rainer Herrmann

[ArtK78]

I would appreciate it if someone would provide an example from high-level play of an auction where the auction proceeded (weak 2 bid) - simple major suit overcall - (P) - raise to game - (P) - another bid.

[mikeh]

I was trying to come up with hands on which partner would reject a 3♥ try and we'd miss a good game. However, all my early attempts were hands on which he'd surely bid game or game would fail (and some were both!). So I have persuaded myself that 3♥ is the best call.

I have to admit, I might at the table have gone with my first reaction, which was to bid game.

[JLOGIC]

Bidding game is very bad imo, you have your whole hand in hearts.

I would just bid 3S, I think even 3H is too much. It can't be understated imo how bad having all these heart values/length is. It is also very bad to have 3 small trumps, 4-1 trumps offside is probably more likely than not if partner has 5spades. I want partner to have quite a good hand to bid game, he is going to bid it with a lot of hands where game is bad opposite a 3H bid.

Quote

I would appreciate it if someone would provide an example from high-level play of an auction where the auction proceeded (weak 2 bid) - simple major suit overcall - (P) - raise to game - (P) - another bid.

Lol. I agree with you art, I bet it's never happened. Rainer, your example hand of KJxxxx --- KQTx AKx would probably not pass a jump to 4S, that is because it is not a 2S overcall. That hand is massive, how bad can it be to double and bid spades when you need so little for game and have such good playability in 3 suits? That seems like a textbook hand to double and bid over a preempt.

Quote

I'd have thought it standard for 3H to be ART GF here. We already have one way of showing an invitational 3S bid, is having another really a priority? Obviously if you play 2N as natural and forcing then it's different but surely that's non-standard.

How often do you need an artificial game force? You can bid a suit naturally. I would say 3H is limit + in spades or 2344 or 24(34) with no stopper. I guess you run into some problem when partner hasa minimum and a heart stopper and you have a GF with no suit, fit, or stopper, but that is such a low probability thing that I think having 2 ways to raise to 3S is definitely better. There is a big difference in Axx x QJxxx xxxx and Qxx xx KQxx KJxx (or whatever your minimum raise to 3 vs your max raise to 3 is) and if you're rainer a 6043 16 count!, I think having 2 raises is justified when the cost is so low.

[JLOGIC]

Maybe I just bid game too much, but 3H is begging partner to bid game imo, and he only won't with pretty bad overcalls. To me this hand is not worth that and I think people are way overrating our hand. For instance I would instantly bid game with AQJxx x Kxx Kxxx (example given here earlier) and wouldn't even consider not doing so over a 3H bid.

[Fluffy]

MickyB, on 2013-January-11, 06:46, said:

I'd have thought it standard for 3H to be ART GF here. We already have one way of showing an invitational 3S bid, is having another really a priority? Obviously if you play 2N as natural and forcing then it's different but surely that's non-standard.

what do you lose for bidding 3♠ with minimums and cuebidding with maximums after the cuebid?

[lalldonn]

MickyB, on 2013-January-11, 06:46, said:

I'd have thought it standard for 3H to be ART GF here. We already have one way of showing an invitational 3S bid, is having another really a priority? Obviously if you play 2N as natural and forcing then it's different but surely that's non-standard.

Standard? That's so weird, I had never heard of that in my life and this is the second recent thread where someone thought it was standard.

[JLOGIC]

lalldonn, on 2013-January-11, 17:17, said:

Standard? That's so weird, I had never heard of that in my life and this is the second recent thread where someone thought it was standard.

It's almost as if you live on a different continent as these people!

[MickyB]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-11, 15:12, said:

what do you lose for bidding 3♠ with minimums and cuebidding with maximums after the cuebid?

Sensible natural auctions on 2(443) and 1444 GFs. As Justin says, these will normally have stoppers so I guess just bid 3N over 2S, but there's a difference between 2344 with Axx heart [3H then 3N for me] and a hand with a huge heart stop [direct 3N]. Also what if you have slam interest but no fit yet?

[lalldonn]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-11, 17:25, said:

It's almost as if you live on a different continent as these people!

The first one was barmar lol. But you're right since every time he beats me in another midnight I feel like he is from a different planet where people are better at bridge.

[lycier]

If play ♠ as trump,I am afraid my hcp in ♥ suit was wasteful not enough to play 4♠,so I would like to bid 3♣,if partner can able to bid 3♦,I am willing to bid 3nt as a final contract,otherwise return to 3♠,sign off.I have confidence in 3nt as a best spot,4♠ may be a hopeless contract.

[FrancesHinden]

lalldonn, on 2013-January-11, 17:17, said:

Standard? That's so weird, I had never heard of that in my life and this is the second recent thread where someone thought it was standard.

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-11, 17:25, said:

It's almost as if you live on a different continent as these people!

Nah, some of us live on the same island as MickyB and think it's bizarre to play 3H as game forcing.

[Fluffy]

MickyB, on 2013-January-11, 18:22, said:

Sensible natural auctions on 2(443) and 1444 GFs. As Justin says, these will normally have stoppers so I guess just bid 3N over 2S, but there's a difference between 2344 with Axx heart [3H then 3N for me] and a hand with a huge heart stop [direct 3N]. Also what if you have slam interest but no fit yet?

What do you bid with those hands after 1♥-1♠-pass?

seems like the same problem. You are better with club-heart switch or transfers. Anyway, I though that you had said artificial gf with fit, but I just saw you didn't so what I said was incorrect.

[ArtK78]

Fluffy, on 2013-January-13, 17:53, said:

What do you bid with those hands after 1♥-1♠-pass?

seems like the same problem. You are better with club-heart switch or transfers. Anyway, I though that you had said artificial gf with fit, but I just saw you didn't so what I said was incorrect.

Not really the same problem, as a direct overcall of 2♥ should have a much higher minimum.

[microcap]

It took a lot of replies, but finally someone got the point of posting this hand--

As Justin points out, your whole hand is in hearts and that is not going to help partner much. And the three small trump are problematic as in fact, you are getting a very bad trump break in this hand.

Partner held AKxxx,x, Qjxxx, A10x which is quite respectable and of course you end up in 4 spades doubled, as RHO has QJ1087 of trump and LHO has opened 2 hearts on a 7 card suit to the Q10. So your AKJ of ♥ took zero tricks.

Point being, be suspicious when so much of your hand is in the opponents suit.

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-11, 14:06, said:

Bidding game is very bad imo, you have your whole hand in hearts.

I would just bid 3S, I think even 3H is too much. It can't be understated imo how bad having all these heart values/length is. It is also very bad to have 3 small trumps, 4-1 trumps offside is probably more likely than not if partner has 5spades. I want partner to have quite a good hand to bid game, he is going to bid it with a lot of hands where game is bad opposite a 3H bid.



Lol. I agree with you art, I bet it's never happened. Rainer, your example hand of KJxxxx --- KQTx AKx would probably not pass a jump to 4S, that is because it is not a 2S overcall. That hand is massive, how bad can it be to double and bid spades when you need so little for game and have such good playability in 3 suits? That seems like a textbook hand to double and bid over a preempt.



How often do you need an artificial game force? You can bid a suit naturally. I would say 3H is limit + in spades or 2344 or 24(34) with no stopper. I guess you run into some problem when partner hasa minimum and a heart stopper and you have a GF with no suit, fit, or stopper, but that is such a low probability thing that I think having 2 ways to raise to 3S is definitely better. There is a big difference in Axx x QJxxx xxxx and Qxx xx KQxx KJxx (or whatever your minimum raise to 3 vs your max raise to 3 is) and if you're rainer a 6043 16 count!, I think having 2 raises is justified when the cost is so low.

[ArtK78]

microcap, on 2013-January-14, 16:21, said:

It took a lot of replies, but finally someone got the point of posting this hand--

As Justin points out, your whole hand is in hearts and that is not going to help partner much. And the three small trump are problematic as in fact, you are getting a very bad trump break in this hand.

Partner held AKxxx,x, Qjxxx, A10x which is quite respectable and of course you end up in 4 spades doubled, as RHO has QJ1087 of trump and LHO has opened 2 hearts on a 7 card suit to the Q10. So your AKJ of ♥ took zero tricks.

Point being, be suspicious when so much of your hand is in the opponents suit.

Other than the fact that both declare and dummy hold the ♣10, it seems to me that this is not an unreasonable game contract. And this is despite a lot of wasted cards (including partner's 14th card - you will have to let us know which card he did not hold).

I would be surprised if many pairs could stay out of game on these cards, and it is not clear that you want to stay out of game.

[JLOGIC]

ArtK78, on 2013-January-14, 16:56, said:

Other than the fact that both declare and dummy hold the ♣10, it seems to me that this is not an unreasonable game contract. And this is despite a lot of wasted cards (including partner's 14th card - you will have to let us know which card he did not hold).

I would be surprised if many pairs could stay out of game on these cards, and it is not clear that you want to stay out of game.

What? If partner has AKxxx x QJxx Axx that is an awful game. We have a sure spade, diamond, and club loser. Then we have to do something about the minor suit losers even after we find 3-2 spades. I mean, what is a likely line? You win the heart lead and lead a diamond up and it loses and they play a trump. You do what exactly? It's not without hope but it's pretty ugly. Sure some good things might happen, they might pop with a diamond as the weak 2 bidder or they might have Qxx of trumps and have a hard time finding the shift, but I would not call this a good game.

This is why this hand is going to fall apart when you are playing it with only 3 trumps and all these heart honors, you can't get off dummy and you're going to get overruffed.

On the note of 3-2 spades, I looked up on rpbridge and see that it is 60 % with 6-1 hearts and 50 % with 7-0 hearts. This doesn't really tell the whole story though, as someone who opens 2H on Q sixth is probably unlikely to be 6322 (or much less likely than normal). I do not know how to do the math but that must make it even less likely than 60 % even with 6-1 hearts if they will typically be 6-4. And when trumps break badly you are often going to be doubled.