[Ant590]

Teams of 8: cross-IMPs

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[mikeh]

I wouldn't object to 1N with the West hand, rather than the negative double.
While my usual guide is that it is easier for a hand with both hearts and a stopper to show both by starting with double rather than 1N, this sort of minimum hand is the exception since we will often not be able to bid more than once. In that event, missing hearts may cost, but our horrible suit and slow spade stopper suggests that it probably won't. Meanwhile, 1N is accurate on strength and we'd bid it without a worry were we 4=3=3=3 with the same values.

But the poll asked for where I think the blame for the result lies, and I think that West's double can't be the true culprit. Yes, opener would have bid 3N over 1N, but we should still get there after the aggressive 3♣. West has that truly huge club A and a spade stopper. He knows that partner showed a good hand with good clubs, and so he has to know that 3N rates to make. It is simply too dangerous to pass.

Opener has no bid at the end.

[gwnn]

i guess west passed because he/she was afraid of the lack of honours in hearts. I can sympathise with that but 3NT must be the best bid. Even if there were 5 heart tricks up for grabs, opps do not rate to take them.

[ggwhiz]

West passing is 100% as East shot their bolt accurately.

3nt (or 1nt initially) may be in the category of mildly inspired but very reasonable. You gotta at least show a pulse with 4♣ though.

[JLOGIC]

Fitting club honor, side king, spade stopper, partner who jump rebid clubs...

[rhm]

Of course West should have bid 3NT.
However, West spade stopper was accidental.
Give West

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and 3NT is still lay-down.

In other words I think East final Pass over 3♠ is not blameless.
I would have bid 3NT anyway.
An expert West should deduce from the delayed notrump bid that I needed some help in the black suits for 3NT and would take out to 4♣ otherwise.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

Lantaron, who is probably the best player in Spain has a theory, not sure where he got it from but it says this:

-When you stop opponent's suit with the Jack, 3NT only require 23 high.

West missbid, J10xx is excellent for 3NT

[Fluffy]

BTW I agree with Rainer on that East's hand is huge, can't believe mikeh says 3♣ is agressive, maybe he doubles 1♠ on hands I would never do. But looks to me that I would rather bid 3NT than 2♣ with east's hand over double.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1C - ok
X - ok
3C - depends on your requirements, for me coming from an Acol backgrund, ok
Wests Pass - ..., he knowes, he has a trump trick, he knowes, the partnership has more than half of the deck,
he does not want to hear anything from East, hence I would double
Easts Passe - given the min. values, I am fine with the bid

=> The blame goes to Wests final pass, and I would not have bid 3NT with West, espesially given the colors.
I am fine with 300 vs. 400, sometimes I get 500, sometimes 100 (and 3NT fails).


With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdeegan]

Imo, E is blameless up through 3♣. W, then, has a choice between double and 3NT. Pass=0. W knows E has six+ ♣, no 4 card ♥ holding, and at least a king extra in HCP. W's double has to be co-operative for penalties (certainly it can't be a one suited take out for ♦). My strong preference is for double because 3NT may not make if the ♣ suit doesn't run, and 3♠ will nearly always go down. Plus, I don't like the idea of opponents who think they can push us around.

Finally, as E, I would probably bid 4♣ in the pass out seat on the theory that pard's one level negative double was a dead minimum with 2 or 3 ♠.

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-19, 05:15, said:

BTW I agree with Rainer on that East's hand is huge, can't believe mikeh says 3♣ is agressive, maybe he doubles 1♠ on hands I would never do. But looks to me that I would rather bid 3NT than 2♣ with east's hand over double.

I nominate this by far the worst ATB and suggestion by Gonzalo (And Rainer) . Are you ***** kidding me ? And i thought i was the top overbidder in these forums lol. 3♣ is a barely 3♣ bid i agree with MikeH.

In another recent topic for example, Lalldonn said that he plays this 3♣ 16-18 hcp. Regardless of which range you play, east has the sub minimum for his 3♣ call at best, period. I dunno which hand you and Rainer are looking at, but suggesting to bid with East hand again that i am looking at, not knowing that pd has A of clubs is......whatever.

Unless of course, Rainer and you are playing a system/style that i am not aware of, in which a negative double promises the Ace of openers minor

Rainers suggestion is also very interesting. So with his EXPERT west pd and his brilliant theory, he would bid 3 NT and West would have lifted the 3NT to 4♣ with

JTxx
Axxx
Kx
xxx

Now we need another result merchant to tell west to pass 3 NT, eventhough his pd asked club help, he should overrule his pd.

OR, his expert pd and himself would play 3NT when west had ♣ A, after all thats what he asked for (you can even add 2 red queens too if you want, doesn't matter)

Tx
Kxxx
xxxx
Axx

Which is very reasonable, after all 3 NT would be cold if opener had ♥A instead of diamond. Unlucky, we found the club Ace but responders king didn't match openers Ace


You solved a problem that doesn't exist (i will explain why) for a hand where pd doesn't have a stopper, has club A and has specific ♦ K, but opened a totally new chapter. Way to go Rainer. (By the way, the example hand you gave is easy for some pairs, west asks spade stopper by DBL, some call it stolen bid some call it something else, but basically when pdship showed a long minor suit and opps occupied your stopper asking space by bidding it at the level that disabled you to cue below 3NT, obviously at 3 level, dbl covers that with the price of missing a penalty double)

You can't bid all the games Rainer, and thats ok. Assume responder hand xxxx ♠ and same hand and you held as opener xxx AJ AJ KQJTxx, 3 NT would be cold if played from west and down 2 from your side.


Back to Gonzalo, who thinks East has a giant, would you be surprised if i gave the world to responder and you can't make game ? Is this enough for you to dbl ?

Tx
KQxx
JTxx
Axx

You still think East has a giant ? Or are you resulting ? A giant that can not make 3NT after finding pd with club A+ 10 hcp ? Unless of course overcaller has both diamond honors to be squeezed.

I think you guys should release East and sentence West without parole for life

[Fluffy]

Dear Timo: the range to jump rebid a suit over a 1M response to 1m (with typically shows 6+ for me, but I think for americans its more like 3+) is different from the range it shows over a negative double (wich for me shows 8+, but I am sure for you shows less).

Also you are putting words in my mouth I didn't say

[gnasher]

I also think the East hand is closer to 3NT than to 2♣. I wouldn't bid either, of course - it's just a normal 3♣ bid. Constructing specific hands where game is poor doesn't make this untrue.

[JLOGIC]

I would say I probably slightly prefer 2C to 3N but it is close and it's ridiculous to evaluate since it really is just a down the middle 3C bid lol

[Zelandakh]

It is not inconsistent to play both that a 3♣ rebid here typically shows 16-18 and for this to be a completely normal 3♣ rebid. This is further blurred by not everyone playing double the same way, although without commentary I would tend to assume 6+ rather than Fluffy's 8+.

[JLOGIC]

Also imo if you don't open 1N you must be planning to rebid 3C else you should open 1N. I think this is fine with the solid-missing-the-ace clubs and side aces, that's a hand type that is not only good for 6C but also can miss 3N by opening 1N pretty easily.

I agree with others that it would certainly be a 3C bid over a response, but over a negative X over 1S it becomes a happy one imo.

[JLOGIC]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-22, 03:24, said:

It is not inconsistent to play both that a 3♣ rebid here typically shows 16-18 and for this to be a completely normal 3♣ rebid. This is further blurred by not everyone playing double the same way, although without commentary I would tend to assume 6+ rather than Fluffy's 8+.

8+ is pretty ridiculous but to me 6+ would be stronger than a 1H response which is "6+" lol. There isn't really a need to make a subminimum X (especially without short spades) over 1S but there is a need to reply 1H with 4 or 5 points most of the time (especially with 5 hearts or good hearts).

I would think of a negative X as probably 2 points lower min than a 1H response so maybe that's where fluffy is getting 8+ from. I cannot imagine anyone not making a negative X with xx AQxxx xxx xxx or whatever.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-November-22, 03:24, said:

Also imo if you don't open 1N you must be planning to rebid 3C else you should open 1N.

I'd open 1♣ planning to rebid 2NT, then change my mind after the overcall.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2012-November-22, 00:28, said:

I nominate this by far the worst ATB and suggestion by Gonzalo (And Rainer) . Are you ***** kidding me ? And i thought i was the top overbidder in these forums lol. 3♣ is a barely 3♣ bid i agree with MikeH.

In another recent topic for example, Lalldonn said that he plays this 3♣ 16-18 hcp. Regardless of which range you play, east has the sub minimum for his 3♣ call at best, period. I dunno which hand you and Rainer are looking at, but suggesting to bid with East hand again that i am looking at, not knowing that pd has A of clubs is......whatever.

Unless of course, Rainer and you are playing a system/style that i am not aware of, in which a negative double promises the Ace of openers minor

We seem indeed to be looking at different East hands.
Maybe I just point out to you that for example the Rubens-Kaplan evaluator puts the East hand at 16.9.
Thomas Andrew HCP evaluator puts it at 18.2 (for suit play)
To call the East hand jump rebid "sub minimum at best, period" is a joke even by Lalldonn standards.

rhm, on 2012-November-19, 04:29, said:

An expert West should deduce from the delayed notrump bid that I needed some help in the black suits for 3NT and would take out to 4♣ otherwise.
Rainer Herrmann

Quote

Rainers suggestion is also very interesting. So with his EXPERT west pd and his brilliant theory, he would bid 3 NT and West would have lifted the 3NT to 4♣ with

JTxx
Axxx
Kx
xxx

Now we need another result merchant to tell west to pass 3 NT, eventhough his pd asked club help, he should overrule his pd.

Why???
This hand has the black suit support (in spades) I am looking for when I opt for 3NT.
It also is the perfect counter example why partner does not require help in clubs and of course does not imply it with a negative double.
Help in spades will do. That's why I spoke about black suit support, not specifically about club support.
I believe this to be an important principle, which occurs frequently:
If partner suggests notrump in a competitive sequence where he has shown a long suit, be wary of notrump if you have neither support for his suit nor help in the suit opponents will lead. Take him out!
Partner should have bid notrump immediately if he requires no support from you in his suit or opponents.
For example with a solid suit and a stopper in spades suit or a good suit and a double stopper in opponents suit partner should not have bothered to jump rebid his clubs.

Quote

OR, his expert pd and himself would play 3NT when west had ♣ A, after all thats what he asked for (you can even add 2 red queens too if you want, doesn't matter)

Tx
Kxxx
xxxx
Axx

Which is very reasonable, after all 3 NT would be cold if opener had ♥A instead of diamond. Unlucky, we found the club Ace but responders king didn't match openers Ace

When I said I would have opted for 3NT I was aware it is not certain it will make. I know bidding again is aggressive.
But when opponents bid again in spite of my strong rebid I do not fancy my chances on defense with this hand, which looks very offensive to me.
In this example I will go down in 3NT. I am well aware of it.
Do you always make 3NT when you bid it?
At least note that in your example when I am down in 3NT, 3♠ has good chances and 4♣ would not fare better.

Rainer Herrmann

[MrAce]

x
AJT9x
Txxx
xxx

I would dbl 1♠ with this 5 hcp and i like this hand more than the 8 hcp below, you can sue me if you want to

Jxx
ATxx
Qxx
Jxx


By the way, when i s aid i agree with Mike, i didn't mean to say i would not bid 3♣ with East hand or didn't mean it is a 2♣ bid. But i see opening 1♣ and then rebidding 2 NT or 3NT with or without the overcall, with pd responding 1♥ or doubling 1♥, regardless, an overbid. 3♣ is perfectly normal bid, i disagree with Gonzalo (and now i see Andy too) about seeing this hand too strong to just bid 3♣.