[daveharty]

I wasn't sure where to post this one, apologies if it's in the wrong forum.

For purposes of this discussion, assume that your tendency when playing a standardish system (5cM, 15-17 NT, 1C=3+, etc.) is to freely open 1NT with a 5cM, if you judge the hand is otherwise suitable.

Now, assume you are playing a system where 1M is limited to something like 11-15, and also that you play a 1NT range that overlaps the limited range. How does this affect the likelihood that you might open 1NT with a 5cM? This could apply to Big ♣/Big ♦ systems, but I'm also interested in responses from people who have experience playing 2-way club systems like Swedish Club.

[akhare]

In context of a 16+ 1♣ opening, we have no qualms opening 1N (14-16) with a 5CM332 when in range.

[ulven]

I'm on TBW record for what I think is the right approach

[nigel_k]

Including 5 card majors works better with a strong NT than a weak NT, regardless of whether 1M is limited.

[lalldonn]

I always open 1NT in range with 5332 hands. Opening 1NT is a very good thing for your results in general.

[Mbodell]

lalldonn, on 2012-August-30, 16:35, said:

I always open 1NT in range with 5332 hands. Opening 1NT is a very good thing for your results in general.

This is my feeling too. I pretty close to always open 1NT with any in range 4333, 4432, 5332, 5m422, and 6m322 - regardless of if the nt range is 10-12, 10-13, 12-14, or 15-17. 1nt is just too awesome to miss!

[daveharty]

Just to be a bit more explicit about the last part of my question: if you are playing something like a two-way club system where weak NT type hands are wrapped into your 1C opener, are people still as liberal about bidding 1C with a 5cM? Or is it suddenly a different story in that particular case?

[awm]

If you are around minimum 1M opening strength it is much better to open 1M. You have basically what pd will play you for, and you can pass most NF responses. You will reach better partials and light games by opening 1M.

If you have more than a minimum 1M by about an ace, you run into some trouble. Your hand will become hard to show in some sequences and you may land in the wrong strain and/or level. While there are some work-arounds for this (Bart, Gazzilli, etc) they tend to help where opener has extra while costing when opener is min. Since a strong club (or strong diamond, or polish club) rules out most strong 1M opens, you probably don't want to play these. It follows that you probably want to open 1nt (or whatever you open on strong NT hands) despite the 5M, but when you have a weak no trump strength you want to open 1M (and not polish club or precision 1d or a weak 1nt).

[dake50]

I want opponents to kick in their 1NT defenses
as often as I can.
Don't even care that my partner won't cater
for my 5cM in our counters.

[chasetb]

I'm probably in the minority, but I've been beaten far too many times for my liking by opening a strong 1NT (Precision) when 1M would have done a LOT better. Of course, in Standard I am bidding 1NT (strong), I pretty much have to.

[Free]

Depends a lot on your NT range imo. If you're playing weak NT I'm much more inclined to open 1M so you're well positioned for competitive auctions. When playing strong NT (say 13+-16) I prefer opening 1NT. This way I can easily play semiforcing 1NT responses over 1M, and safely pass my balanced hands after 1M-1NT.

[jallerton]

Free, on 2012-August-31, 03:45, said:

Depends a lot on your NT range imo. If you're playing weak NT I'm much more inclined to open 1M so you're well positioned for competitive auctions. When playing strong NT (say 13+-16) I prefer opening 1NT. This way I can easily play semiforcing 1NT responses over 1M, and safely pass my balanced hands after 1M-1NT.

Is that all one needs for a "strong" NT these days?

[mikestar13]

I have to abstain on this one--it really depends on the overall system. In, for example, Revision Club, 1NT is 16-18(!), so the choice with a weaker balanced hand is between 1♦ showing a balanced hand among other possibilities, or 1M. In this context, 1M is clearly superior. In other big club/variable club contexts, YMMV. But in general, whether the 1M opening is limited or not, the stronger the NT range, the more likely 1NT with a 5 card major is to be right. Kaplan-Sheinwold refused to open a 12-14 NT with a 5 card major better than xxxxx. And while EK wasn't right about everything, he felt strongly about this, according to the KS system book..

[kayin801]

Maybe this is just because I remember when it's sucked, but I feel like every once in a while I've gotten a really bad MP score opening (14-16 or 10-12) 1NT with a 5 card major when the field was in 2M/3M and we had an unstopped suit or two and our 5-3 or 5-4 only took 5 tricks. I'm sure I've also gotten good MP scores when I've played in 1NT in my 5-3 fit. Not to mention the times we have no fit and 1NT is a great spot.

That said, I echo what a few others have said in that I love opening 1NT. Especially in the auction 1H-1S-1NT now partner knows our range and I don't have to rebid 2m on a non-suit when I'm out of range for my rebid.

[ulven]

mikestar13, on 2012-September-01, 16:54, said:

...the choice with a weaker balanced hand is between 1♦ showing a balanced hand among other possibilities, or 1M. In this context, 1M is clearly superior.

I'm not convinced.

[aguahombre]

kayin801, on 2012-September-01, 22:03, said:

That said, I echo what a few others have said in that I love opening 1NT. Especially in the auction 1H-1S-1NT now partner knows our range and I don't have to rebid 2m on a non-suit when I'm out of range for my rebid.

Warped person that I am, an interesting thought came. For those with 12-14 NT, partner would indeed know the range in the auction 1H-1S-1NT. The split range is 10/11 OR 15.

[Zelandakh]

In my system with limited openers (up to 17) it is systemic always to open 1NT with 5M332 shape. Indeed there is no provision to show such a hand after a 1M opening. I think that the benefits of knowing that 1M is unbalanced outweigh the potential plusses when 2M is right. If I included provision for 5332 hands within the 1M structure (ie giving a choice of openings) then I would be more inclined to open 1M since the benefits from knowing opener is unbalanced are gone.

[the hog]

1NT works equally well in a limited opening system as it does in an unlimited system. A balanced hand should be treated as one.

[han]

the hog, on 2012-September-03, 02:20, said:

1NT works equally well in a limited opening system as it does in an unlimited system.

I think everybody agrees with that. I think everybody also agrees that a limited 1M works better than an unlimited 1M. Therefore it seems obvious that opening 1M is more appealing in a limited system than in an unlimited system.

I would still open 1NT pretty much all the time fwiw.

[glen]

han, on 2012-September-03, 03:52, said:

... I think everybody also agrees that a limited 1M works better than an unlimited 1M ...

Fantunes disagrees