[gnasher]

---

Your options are:
2♠ - what it sounds like
2NT - invitational+ 4-card raise
3♣ - invitational+ 3-card raise
3♦ - natural NF
3♥ - mixed 4-card raise
3♠ - weak 4-card raise
Double - takeout

[cloa513]

gnasher, on 2011-December-15, 18:28, said:

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Your options are:
2♠ - what it sounds like
2NT - invitational+ 4-card raise
3♣ - invitational+ 3-card raise
3♦ - natural NF
3♥ - mixed 4-card raise
3♠ - weak 4-card raise
Double - takeout

3♣, partner should be able guess what you have especially if opponents raise to 3♥.

[rhm]

This is an exercise in tactics and bidding strategy.

There is no point in raising ♠ immediately, unless you are prepared to sell out to 4♥, which I am not prepared to do in spite of the risks at these colors.
Raising ♠s now and bidding ♦s thereafter makes no sense, but will land you in the right contract with many average players, because it is more likely you belong in ♦s than ♠s.

If you bid 3♦ non forcing, how big are the chances that this will get passed out while you can make game? My guess is close to zero, no matter how good the opponents are.
The bidding is likely to get competitive now and if you bid ♦ first, partner is much more likely to take the right decision later.
So bid 3♦ now, prepared to raise ♠ next when a ♥ raise comes back to you, if necessary at the 4 level. I would overrule partner if he doubles 4♥ before I had a chance to show my ♠ support.

A good partner will now understand, that your hand is based on a ♦ suit and limited ♠ support and that he should give serious consideration of correcting to ♦s, in particular if he does not have supporting ♦ honors.
Unfortunately on many players this last point tends to get lost.

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

Is 4♦ available as a fit bid ?

My overcalls are sounder than most people's, so it's not silly to do this, sure I'd like to have a club/diamond less and a spade more, but I wasn't dealt them.

If I decide I'm not selling to 4♥, then I think it's reasonable to bid this way.

[Fluffy]

I would certainly bid 4♦ in my partnership, but if unavaible, I think 4♠ is the best 1-bid description.

But as rhm says this doesn´t need to be a 1-bid description, 3♦ won´t be passed out, and we are very likelly to get a chance to bid 4♠ next, so in your methods I´d bid 3♦.

[gnasher]

Sorry, yes, 4♦ would be a fit bid. 4♥ would be a splinter.

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2011-December-16, 05:29, said:

Sorry, yes, 4♦ would be a fit bid. 4♥ would be a splinter.

I still prefer 3♦. The fact that you are missing a fourth ♠ card is vital in my opinion.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

I prefer to reach the level I want to play in 1 bid and leave all the work to partner, althou 4♦ is not accurate, it is certainly more descriptive than 3♦ if partner is to make a decision next.

4♦ would be more obvious with hearts and clubs reversed since we might be facing a 5♣ bid by LHO more likelly, and we want partner to make an intelligent decision there with all the info we can transfer.

As it is now 3♦ is strong contender as 4♥ is so very likelly to come back to us (and if partner bids over 4♥ himself we have the evidence to push to the 5 level). Ok, I cahnge my midn, 3♦ is IMO the best bid now.


Just a side note for BILs: splintering in competition is very bad, it kills partner´s heart holdings if we don´t end up playing the board.

[whereagles]

Seems like a 4D fit bid is in order. I'll sell out to 4H if pard happens to pass that

[Cyberyeti]

whereagles, on 2011-December-16, 06:16, said:

Seems like a 4D fit bid is in order. I'll sell out to 4H if pard happens to pass that

Certainly by my meta agreements as 4♦ is F4♠, pass by partner would be forcing.

[dake50]

In my partnership, 3D does not deny spades.
3D promises at least spade tolerance
or 3d-er can control the developments.
That agreement makes 3D stand out.

[jmcw]

I think Rainer nailed it.

[cherdano]

I wanted to write what Rainer wrote.

[han]

At the table I would certainly bid 3D, but I think that there is something to be said for jumping to 4S. We are red against white. I don't know about you but I think it is quite scary to bid 3D and then 4S over 4H. Maybe it feels equally scary to jump to 4S, but I think they will bid 5H much more often.

4D as a fitbid seems to combine the worst of both bids. It is not descriptive, it risks going for a number in 4S (I don't think that partner is likely to pass 4D or 4DX) and it gives LHO room to bid 4H. I even think that 4D as a non-fit jumpshift (NFJ) is more appealing.

[FrancesHinden]

I don't like a plan that involves bidding diamonds now and then bidding 4S later - it gives LHO the chance to raise hearts safely and then they will find it much easier to double you in 4S.
I play a style where 3S promises 3-card spade support (with a diamond single-suiter I double or bid 2NT depending on quite how single-suited I am); with that agreement 3D is descriptive. Without that, if I bid 3D now I would pass 4H. Failing that I raise spades at once, and at least make them guess.

[mikeh]

If partner has short diamonds, he probably has some heart length and with our holdings, we probably want to defend.

if partner has diamond support, we have a double fit, they probably do as well, and both sides can make a lot of tricks.

I bid 3♦, because if LHO has hearts, he bids them at the 3-level, most of the time, and that may allow partner to bid 4♦. Now over 4♥, I have what I think is a tough call. There will be a lot of layouts on which 5♦ plays for more tricks than does 4♠. Indeed, since 4♥ will often make, we need to be thinking that our contract may be a save...red v white tho we are....of course the best save is the one that makes, and 4♠ rates to make more often than 5♦, while failing by more on a bad day.

I'll bid 4♠ in my hoped-for auction.

If partner passes 3♥, and rho raises to game, I'm done. I am not bidding 4♠ on this auction.

This may really work out poorly, but 5-3 fits, when the 3 card holding gets tapped, and we may not get to enjoy my 7 card suit, really isn't attractive opposite the kinds of overcalls that my partnerships make, even vulnerable against not.

[JLOGIC]

han, on 2011-December-19, 09:43, said:

At the table I would certainly bid 3D, but I think that there is something to be said for jumping to 4S. We are red against white. I don't know about you but I think it is quite scary to bid 3D and then 4S over 4H. Maybe it feels equally scary to jump to 4S, but I think they will bid 5H much more often.

I think you underestimate the chance that they just go lol and rip us because we are red vs white and they have values and let us go for a number. I am not excited about this hand unless partner has six spades, it is definitely the type of hand that just falls apart. It's not like we can just ruff a ton of hearts in dummy, crossing to declarers hand multiple times, then pull trumps, then run diamonds.

I would bid 3C (3 card limit raise for me, maybe if I had non specific agreements about 3C vs 3H I would bid 3H to preempt them a little more). I want to involve partner in the decision of whether or not to bid 4S. I am definitely not willing to unilaterally bid 4S red vs white opposite a 1 level overcall. I also am not willing to bid 3D then pass, partner doesn't know about our spade fit and we might miss 4S.

I don't understand what 3D then 4S is hoping to gain. I guess it prepares partner for the 5 level decision, but to me the decision to be made is whether or not to bid 4S.

[JLOGIC]

mikeh, on 2011-December-19, 12:42, said:

I bid 3♦, because if LHO has hearts, he bids them at the 3-level, most of the time, and that may allow partner to bid 4♦. Now over 4♥, I have what I think is a tough call. There will be a lot of layouts on which 5♦ plays for more tricks than does 4♠. Indeed, since 4♥ will often make, we need to be thinking that our contract may be a save...red v white tho we are....of course the best save is the one that makes, and 4♠ rates to make more often than 5♦, while failing by more on a bad day.

I'll bid 4♠ in my hoped-for auction.

I guess the best reason to bid 3D is to allow partner to raise diamonds which would then let you comfortably bid 4S. How likely is it really that partner is going to raise diamonds though? That would make this hand a big double fit. I think a far more likely scenario is that partner cannot raise diamonds, but maybe has 6 spades or a good enough hand to make 4S (obv RHO might be light with long hearts), and he never knew we had a good spade raise so he cannot bid it and a vul game is lost.

[gszes]

2s

1. My 3 "small" spades barely qualifies as support

2. If p is anywhere minimum for overcall ruffing several
hearts may be an illusion.

3. We let p know of our support and limit our defense
to around 1 trick and change (about what we have)

4. If it goes p p p we are in spades anyway (I know this
will happen as often as people agreeing with my bids)

5. this is the only bid aside from pass where I have zero
problems respecting a 4h x from p (I would pull 3h x to 4s
and be ready to apologize if p had KQJT of hearts).

6. This will be best chance of getting p involved while armed
with a good approximation of how our combined hands will fair
in any defensive situation.

7. For once we have something in reserve if p can make some
sort of noise over there. Who knows maybe we can play 4s x
with our void surprise but I dont want to be in 4s opposite
almost any minimum overcall p may have.

I think the problem is that most are failing to take into
consideration that the 2h bid has probably downgraded p hand
and therefore are entirely too optimistic and risk a very
large penalty. With a 2s bid we let p decide if their hand
has gotten worse or not because they can see their hand.

If you cannot stomach a 2s bid go for jlogic limit raise
which is close from an offensive standpoint but overstates
defensive potential if auction gets higher.

[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2011-December-19, 14:05, said:

I think you underestimate the chance that they just go lol and rip us because we are red vs white and they have values and let us go for a number. I am not excited about this hand unless partner has six spades, it is definitely the type of hand that just falls apart. It's not like we can just ruff a ton of hearts in dummy, crossing to declarers hand multiple times, then pull trumps, then run diamonds.

I would bid 3C (3 card limit raise for me, maybe if I had non specific agreements about 3C vs 3H I would bid 3H to preempt them a little more). I want to involve partner in the decision of whether or not to bid 4S. I am definitely not willing to unilaterally bid 4S red vs white opposite a 1 level overcall. I also am not willing to bid 3D then pass, partner doesn't know about our spade fit and we might miss 4S.

I don't understand what 3D then 4S is hoping to gain. I guess it prepares partner for the 5 level decision, but to me the decision to be made is whether or not to bid 4S.

Partner made a vulnerable overcall, we have a shapely 9 HCP, LHO opened the bidding and RHO made a forcing bid at the 2 level in our void suit white versus red..
The conclusion is that everyone is likely minimum on HCP and bidding on shape and extra length and no side has a clear preponderance of strength.
In such scenarios doubles often backfire.
Also if you eventually defend, a diamond lead could be crucial. If you make an invitational raise on three small spades how likely is that?
If partner has six or more spades, it is likely that 4♠ will be a playable contract.
If partner has a 5 card spade suit, his spades will be good and given the bidding so far, how likely is it that partner will have no support for diamonds?
In this case I am more worried that we will end up in spades when we belong in diamonds. The reason I bid diamonds is exactly because we could fall apart in a spade contract.

JLOGIC, on 2011-December-19, 14:07, said:

I guess the best reason to bid 3D is to allow partner to raise diamonds which would then let you comfortably bid 4S. How likely is it really that partner is going to raise diamonds though? That would make this hand a big double fit. I think a far more likely scenario is that partner cannot raise diamonds, but maybe has 6 spades or a good enough hand to make 4S (obv RHO might be light with long hearts), and he never knew we had a good spade raise so he cannot bid it and a vul game is lost.

The trouble I see is that without bidding diamonds partner will never know whether his hand is "good enough".
If you raise spades, no matter how, partner will not know that his diamond holding is that crucial.
With a void in hearts, spade support and a long side suit I am prepared to take the crucial decision, whether to bid 4♠, when opponents bid game on their own steam.
I admit I am biased against defending when holding a void. I am overbidding and I could be wrong, but I think I have a better chance to get it right than partner, if you only show your spade support.
The reason is I have more information than partner.
He can not tell whether you have a singleton or void in hearts nor that diamonds may be a source of tricks, but will assume that your spades are better.
It is true that partner is not likely to raise diamonds, but if he would, raising spades now will loose the ♦s and you will, red versus white, be selling out to ♥s too early.
With a void in hearts and spade support I am prepared to discount the possibility that we will go for a number, provided we play in the right strain and I am betting that at least one side does have a game.

Rainer Herrmann