[pclayton]

WTF is acceptable in all venues except perhaps a debutante's ball.

"*****" isn't. Nor is *****, piss, and the rest of Carlin's list. People do use the words, and moderation is the key.

I still freak out when my kids use the word. I use it myself sometimes around them, but I always apologize later when I do. Dad's only human. I have zero problem with dubya-tee-eff. Frankly, it shows they are being considerate by not cussing. I suppose when my kids have moved out of the house, so we are more on a 'peer' level, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it would still bother me a little, since a little self-restraint can curb the use of words like this.

[Elianna]

This thread has made me think even more. Wow. I wonder how many people see abbreviations, and read the abbreviation, and not what it stands for.

For myself, some abbreviations get automatically translated into their long version, but some don't. AIDS, DNA, UN, etc. don't get translated, but LOL (both ones), wtf, etc, etc... do. I guess expressions get translated but abbreviations don't? (By "translated" I mean that when I read them on a page, I read it as "laughing out loud" versus "dee en ay".

[y66]

For me, there's nothing inherently offensive in the word *****. I like its versatility. Maybe that's an Irish thing. Maybe not though. I'm not 100% Irish and I feel 100% comfortable using this word. In context, of course. If I'm not sure who I'm talking to, or if I know the person I'm talking to will take offense, I will generally avoid using this word.

I think wtf, like fubar, is different though, in terms of general expectations of offensiveness. It's more of a colloquialism than an expletive. I know people who would not use ***** at the dinner table who would not raise an eyebrow if someone used fubar to describe, say, the current state of leadership in the U.S., especially if they then had the good sense to change the subject.

I really like the freedom of expression in this forum and the generally prevailing attitude of respectful communication.

I also really like the clarity and economy of expressions like wtf?. I hope people do not stop using this expression.

BTW, according to John Ayto, editor of the Oxford Dictionary of Slang:

"... it would be too much to say that ***** doesn't offend anybody. It hasn't finished the journey yet to becoming a milk-and-water word. But its impact is diminishing at a rapid rate. Young people tend not to think of it as offensive at all."

p.s. Could Maya have chosen a more apt word in her answer to Miles' question in the movie Sideways?

Miles: Why do you like wine?

Maya: “ … I like to think about the life of wine, how it's a living thing. I like to think about what was going on the year the grapes were growing, how the sun was shining that summer or if it rained... what the weather was like. I think about all those people who tended and picked the grapes, and if it's an old wine, how many of them must be dead by now. I love how wine continues to evolve, how every time I open a bottle it's going to taste different than if I had opened it on any other day. Because a bottle of wine is actually alive -- it's constantly evolving and gaining complexity. That is, until it peaks -- like your '61 -- and begins its steady, inevitable decline. And it tastes so fucking good.”

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Jun 30 2008, 03:27 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Jun 29 2008, 06:48 PM, said:

Justin let me ask you a question, would you use this language at dinner with your parents and grandmother or at a meeting with a new paying client?

This may be shocking to you...but...yes. I frequently say "let's beat the f*** out of them (the other team), or perhaps after a close loss I might say "f***" I have never had a client who has minded these words, maybe that is because people who hire young people do not usually mind such things (self selection) and use these words themselves.

I've been around you with clients and I've never heard you use salty language. I have heard other young pros use R-rated language a lot, however.

Did the clients actually say they don't have a problem with this language or did you just assume they don't since they didn't bring it up? If your examples are the extent of the bad language, I think its within the acceptable boundaries of ANY professional-client relationship. For instance, if I were playing golf with a client, or anyone else I needed to impress (or not piss off (oops ) and bladed a shot OB, no one would care in the least if I said MF!!! They would greatly care if I turned my pitching wedge into a helicopter.

With my clients, the older they ACT, the less likely I am to use any bad language. I have an 83 year old that talks like a sailor, and its pretty friggin' funny. I have another who's her late 50's who I wouldn't dream of using the F-word around. I'd guess I would feel comfortable around most of my clients, since we feel comfortable around each other and are good friends.

I think its the rare individual nowadays that does not use any foul language.

[rogerclee]

In the context of the original thread, the WTF wasn't about "What the *****, how is my partner this dumb?!?!" but more of a sign of general frustration not particularly directed at anyone.

I am really confused as to how people can find this offensive. I agree that cursing is offensive if used in a certain way, but most of the time it's not.

By the way, these comments about how cursing is a sign of poor vocabulary or upbringings or whatever are hogwash.

[matmat]

Codo, on Jun 30 2008, 06:40 AM, said:

It is in the responsibility of the writer/speaker to stop using words which are offensive to others.

I don't believe that it is at all. I think it is the responsibility of the reader to filter/avoid authors that would offend them, and the responsibility of the censors (*shudder*) to maintain some sort of a very broad and tolerant standard.

I think it is incredibly poor manners to tell others what to do in regards to behavior that has no scarring or detrimental effect on health or finances.

I think it is remarkably funny what people consider obscene and what is "acceptable." I enjoy watching sports from time to time -- it is a HUGE deal if anyone ever gives someone the finger, and, often the camera cuts away during arguments to avoid the lip-readers out there from being offended by seeing some of their favorite stars mouth one of the seven deadly words. yet, the same broadcasts will readily show the players blowing their nose without the benefit of a tissue, or spitting out flegm onto the field? Surely spreading bacteria should be more offensive than saying a rude word...

Similarly, in the US, I find it incredibly bad mannered for a waiter or waitress at a restaurant to interrupt my dinner conversation with friends to ask us how our food is? Seems like they're just asking for praise for the chef. I sometimes make it a point to list all the things i thought were wrong with the meal, including the frequent interruptions by the waiting staff. It also ticks me off when they keep asking if am done so they can whisk away my plate. Why is that considered proper manners/etiquette and cursing not?

i fear i might have gone on a rant-tangent

anyhow, point is this, you can change your views of someone based on their "manners," and you can change the degree to which you interact with them, but trying to change how they behave is poor form in its own right, it's just as disrespectful as what you think using coarse language is.

[matmat]

jillybean2, on Jun 29 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

Here we go again
Each time I view forums lately, there is one post that stands out – What The Fuck partner

I was under the impression the WC was there for this type of language.  Obviously not, the moderators and site owners allow it and I’m in the tiny minority who object to it. How far can we go now?

Also, do you see the large button near the top-right of each post with the caption (!Report)?. It would probably work better from the standpoint of the moderators, if you clicked that to lodge your complaint about a particular post, rather than trying to convert others to your values.

[blackshoe]

My father never uttered an obscenity or profanity in my presence - until I was 25. it became clear then that he knew, probably had always known, the words, but chose not to use them. He could, nonetheless, make clear his disappointment with whatever stupid stunt I'd pulled this time, without obscenity or profanity and usually without raising his voice.

The most effective drill instructor I met in 20 years in the military had a talent for explaining the shortcomings of his charges in great and humiliating detail, all at a normal, often quiet (when he got quiet, you knew you'd really screwed up) voice level, and using words which demonstrated an extraordinary vocabulary. He could also "cuss a blue streak" when he deemed it appropriate (which as I recall it was never, in a training environment).

It is interesting that we come to equate uttering obscenities with uttering profanities (they are not the same thing) and both with "cursing", which is a different animal altogether. I've heard that Arabic is the best language for actual cursing, and given some of the sample translations I've heard, I can believe it. But the examples are true curses and don't involve obscenity or profanity at all.

[ArtK78]

I have been reading this thread with amazement. Primarily I am amazed that it has gone on for as long as it has in the manner that it has without being pulled by BBO Forum Management.

In the Terms of Service at the beginning of this Forum, the following are the introductory and first numbered paragraphs:

Welcome to the BridgeBase Forums! Before beginning to use our service, we ask that you read over our Terms of Service. To most people this should not be of tremendous concern but it is worth reviewing. By establishing an account with the BridgeBase Forums (BBF) you agree that:

1. You will not engage in conduct or post any material that is defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of ANY law. Doing any of these is a good way to find yourself barred from the forums. The board should never go above PG-rated for any reason.

I have been participating in these Fora for quite some time, and I have noticed a general decline in the standards of deportment (if you will) over the last six months or so. Not the least of the declines is the use of acronyms for totally unacceptable language, such as "WTF" and the like. I am somewhat surprised that it has gone on this long without comment. I am astonished that the objection to the language which began this thread set out the words signified by the acronym WTF in full and in bold type without any consequences (or at least none that I am aware of).

I am sure that all of us can express ourselves coherently and completely without the use of obscenities or substitutes for obscentities. Even I have used some, without spelling them out, when necessary. For instance, I made reference to the "Oh, s**t!" rule for strong 2 bids - if you open a hand one of a suit and it goes all pass, if your first thought is "Oh, s**t!" then you should have opened a strong 2 bid. I suppose I could have said "Oh, crap!" instead but I was actually quoting a prior post. And since there is a famous appeals case from a North American Championship which goes by this name, I thought that this phrase has actually become a part of the bridge lexicon.

My point is that we should be using this language less, not more, frequently, if at all, in these Fora. And the justification for the use of the language is just that - justification. It is not a reason to use it, and, in the face of the terms of service to which we have all agreed to, it just doesn't cut it.

[mr1303]

My 2p worth is that if the forums get blocked by my anti-porn blocker etc, then the language on there isn't appropriate. Bridge should be a family game, and therefore we should use language appropriate for a family setting.

[matmat]

PG rating, according to the MPAA:

"A PG-rated motion picture should be investigated by parents before they let their younger children attend. The PG rating indicates, in the view of the Rating Board, that parents may consider some material unsuitable for their children, and parents should make that decision.

The more mature themes in some PG-rated motion pictures may call for parental guidance. There may be some profanity and some depictions of violence or brief nudity. But these elements are not deemed so intense as to require that parents be strongly cautioned beyond the suggestion of parental guidance. There is no drug use content in a PG-rated motion picture.
"

highlight is mine.
http://www.mpaa.org/FlmRat_Ratings.asp

[babalu1997]

jillybean2, on Jun 29 2008, 06:48 PM, said:

If I happened to find myself in a rugby club changing room

Will someone get me courtside seat at the changing room please?

[kenrexford]

Now I have to come up with a new name for one of my most important contributions to slam bidding, the OS5NT bid, a 5NT call that announces an intent to pass the next call no matter what happens, usuyally because the bidder is absolutely lost in the auction. As the "OS" part is a bad word "Oh ____," apparently that's too much for sensitive ears in the know.

The problem is coming up with an alternative. OC5NT ("Oh Crap!") sounds like some sort of very "in crowd" 5NT bid. That doesn't work. Plus, "crap" is probably a bad word, too.

OP5NT ("Oh Poopie") sounds wrong, too.

Maybe I need to quit with the scatological.

TS5NT ("This Sucks!") comes to mind, except that it might be deemed as sexist or as homophobic. Darn!

Why is "darn" a bad word? Making fun of seamsters? I suppose seamsters are often women, at least in classic male-biased society. Not sure on that one.

UO5NT ("Uh oh!") might work. Except, that sound gutteral, like I'm making fun of Neanderthals. Grunters. Although, how can I trust movies that portray Neanderthals as grunters? Maybe they spoke in a language that was more flowing, with even more useless letters, than the French? I mean, the valley is close to France, maybe eben in France. Not sure. Maybe Neanderthals thought crepes are too bulky and liked an even lighter version of the pancake.

I'm confused...

[sceptic]

hhhh

[jillybean]

pclayton, on Jun 30 2008, 09:04 AM, said:

<snip>For instance, if I were playing golf with a client, or anyone else I needed to impress (or not piss off (oops  ) and bladed a shot OB, no one would care in the least if I said MF!!! <snip>

Maybe I have misunderstood the post but I find it hard to believe someone saying Mother F**ker on the golf course wouldnt raise some eyebrows.
Do people not care or just feel uncomfortable saying something?

If MF is ok then where are the boundaries?

[matmat]

jillybean2, on Jun 30 2008, 05:43 PM, said:

If MF is ok then where are the boundaries?

do there need to be boundaries, as far as language is concerned?

[Echognome]

jillybean2, on Jun 30 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 30 2008, 09:04 AM, said:

<snip>For instance, if I were playing golf with a client, or anyone else I needed to impress (or not piss off (oops  ) and bladed a shot OB, no one would care in the least if I said MF!!! <snip>

Maybe I have misunderstood the post but I find it hard to believe someone saying Mother F**ker on the golf course wouldnt raise some eyebrows.
Do people not care or just feel uncomfortable saying something?

If MF is ok then where are the boundaries?

It's all context.

Say you were at home and you opened the refrigerator and a glass pitcher fell out and shattered on your floor. And you said "Oh sh**!" or some other expletive in front of your husband. Would he be understanding?

Say that someone dropped something on your foot that was heavy. It'd be understanding to swear.

I think that's more analogous to what Phil was saying in regards to golf. If you swore every hole or every bad shot and it was often, then it would raise eyebrows.


Unrelated to your specific posts JB, I think this whole notion of "If they use expletives, then they must have a limited vocubalury.." business is really what you tell children. It may be true in some cases, but I know plenty of intelligent people with tremendous vocabularies that still swear now and then. I personally think it's a judgment about what company you around and I really don't think an online forum is a place with much limitations. I certainly cannot imagine worrying about language online. We can simply choose to ignore certain people's posts or parts of their posts. I think of it akin to watching cable television. Some channels might have "inappropriate" language, but that doesn't make it wrong. It just means you should be careful what you watch if you find it offensive and certainly careful what you let your children watch. However, amongst adults, I don't see the problem.

[pclayton]

jillybean2, on Jun 30 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 30 2008, 09:04 AM, said:

<snip>For instance, if I were playing golf with a client, or anyone else I needed to impress (or not piss off (oops  ) and bladed a shot OB, no one would care in the least if I said MF!!! <snip>

Maybe I have misunderstood the post but I find it hard to believe someone saying Mother F**ker on the golf course wouldnt raise some eyebrows.
Do people not care or just feel uncomfortable saying something?

If MF is ok then where are the boundaries?

The only real boundaries are the white stakes on the edges of the course.

To me, the difference is frequency. If you have a non-stop run of four-letter words during the round, or during dinner, or during your date, its a turn off. If it happens rarely to occasionally, no should raise an eyebrow.

Frankly, I think people who never cuss can be rather prudish.

[Elianna]

matmat, on Jun 30 2008, 09:56 AM, said:

PG rating, according to the MPAA:

"A PG-rated motion picture should be investigated by parents before they let their younger children attend. The PG rating indicates, in the view of the Rating Board, that parents may consider some material unsuitable for their children, and parents should make that decision.

The more mature themes in some PG-rated motion pictures may call for parental guidance. There may be some profanity and some depictions of violence or brief nudity. But these elements are not deemed so intense as to require that parents be strongly cautioned beyond the suggestion of parental guidance. There is no drug use content in a PG-rated motion picture.
"

highlight is mine.
http://www.mpaa.org/FlmRat_Ratings.asp

In movie ratings, some profanities are considered more serious than others. For example, use of the words "damn", "hell", etc are not enough to make a movie be rated PG-13, but they are still considered profanities. Take for example, this movie, "The Visitor". It is rated PG-13 "for brief strong language" according to IMDB. According to a website that lists anything that one might find objectionable (don't read the whole threadif you're worried about spoilers) it contains

Quote

2 F-words, 3 scatological references, 1 anatomical reference, 4 mild obscenities (two muttered in Arabic), 2 instances of name-calling in Arabic, 3 stereotypical remarks about Arabs, 2 about African-American, 1 about Caucasians, 2 religious exclamations.

And there's not much nudity/violence (not enough to raise the rating to PG-13).

So to claim that saying f*** is ok in a setting that is supposed to be PG is not true.

[matmat]

Elianna, on Jun 30 2008, 06:12 PM, said:

So to claim that saying f*** is ok in a setting that is supposed to be PG is not true.

fair enough