[csdenmark]

The_Hog, on Jan 5 2007, 02:25 AM, said:

"Not so difficult to think of - it is mostly the compact widespread mobil phones of course which will be in line. But also pocket PC - wireless internet - you name it. Such lists and regulations will need to be updatet probably every second year.

My God, so now you are having people phone or txt the meanings of their bids via cell phones!!!! I have come to the conclusion that you are having a huge joke with everyone on this site.

Ron you see the point in huge convention cards on paper today like you see those of Bermuda Bowl? They are in pdf format - why not in FD format?

[matmat]

csdenmark, on Jan 4 2007, 07:18 PM, said:

Not so difficult to think of - it is mostly the compact widespread mobil phones of course which will be in line. But also pocket PC - wireless internet - you name it. Such lists and regulations will need to be updatet probably every second year.

If that's the case why bother with having a system at all? why not just text message your hand to your p, your opponents can do the same and then each pair makes successive bids to arrive at the final contract?

[matmat]

csdenmark, on Jan 4 2007, 07:39 PM, said:

Ron you see the point in huge convention cards on paper today like you see those of Bermuda Bowl? They are in pdf format - why not in FD format?

because a convention card is pretty much a general approach to the system.

have you even thought about how much data storage you would need to describe every possible bidding sequence in the FD format?

[csdenmark]

matmat, on Jan 5 2007, 02:46 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 4 2007, 07:39 PM, said:

Ron you see the point in huge convention cards on paper today like you see those of Bermuda Bowl? They are in pdf format - why not in FD format?

because a convention card is pretty much a general approach to the system.

have you even thought about how much data storage you would need to describe every possible bidding sequence in the FD format?

because a convention card is pretty much a general approach to the system
I assume we easily agree that 20 pages are no general approach

have you even thought about how much data storage you would need to describe every possible bidding sequence in the FD format?
Yes - less than 1MB. Meckwell Club - maybe not the full 800 pages some think they know of - is approx. 600 KB. Bocchi-Duboin 2001(the version with most brown-sticker features) is approx. 140 KB.

In a few months plastic hardrives containing 30 Giga are to be introduced for that market.

The advantage of that is that it will be benefitting amateurs who have bridge as a hobby but like to compete with the professionals. Today the professionals need to strip their features to fit them for the regulators. They ought instead provide remedies for amateurs to catch up using the technology most of us are using each day.

Why has anybody come to that conclusion that bridge need to be a game based on ancient rules. Oh - maybe nobody has come to that idea - it has just become so because of sleepy people.

[glen]

csdenmark, on Jan 4 2007, 08:08 PM, said:

plastic hardrives

this two word phrase only gets one hit in google, so perhaps this little piggie is not going to market just yet, or maybe the phrase is incorrect? Maybe I'm just sleepy people.

[the hog]

I suspect he means USB keys or thumb drives as we call them.

[matmat]

i'm lazy
how many bidding sequences are there?

[DrTodd13]

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

[inquiry]

DrTodd13, on Jan 4 2007, 10:50 PM, said:

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

Actually, this 48 digit number looks about right. However, from the perspective of FD, it is a huge underestimate. This is just the possible auctions, but FD also takes into consideration all the various vulnerable conditions. No vul, they vul, we vul, both vul, and the effect of first, second, third and fourth seat on each of these auctions.

Needless to say, the number is, well, unimaginable large.

[matmat]

DrTodd13, on Jan 4 2007, 10:50 PM, said:

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

i figure about 30-50 bytes per sequence?

[csdenmark]

officeglen, on Jan 5 2007, 04:18 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Jan 4 2007, 08:08 PM, said:

plastic hardrives

this two word phrase only gets one hit in google, so perhaps this little piggie is not going to market just yet, or maybe the phrase is incorrect? Maybe I'm just sleepy people.

It is a flash technology changing the way for harddrives to act. The mechanical features are replaced by optical features. Try search in Computerworld USA. I read the info yesterday - I think it was an RSS from Computerworld and the danish edition is often translations from IDG in USA.

There was a message today about the same from IT section of a danish engineering paper: http://www.version2.dk/artikel/964?rss

I found a link to an article in english http://news.com.com/SanDisk+rolls+out+flas...ml?tag=nefd.top

[csdenmark]

matmat, on Jan 5 2007, 05:20 AM, said:

i'm lazy
how many bidding sequences are there?

Count them yourself please - I assume 2000-3000 statements. Please remember to disable 'Constructive' looking for competitive actions. This is 595KB

http://bridgefiles.n...Club%202003.bss

I forgot earlier - the obvious way for Alert will certainly be SMS - but I am completely sure you have figured that out yourself.

[hotShot]

inquiry, on Jan 5 2007, 06:22 AM, said:

DrTodd13, on Jan 4 2007, 10:50 PM, said:

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

Actually, this 48 digit number looks about right. However, from the perspective of FD, it is a huge underestimate. This is just the possible auctions, but FD also takes into consideration all the various vulnerable conditions. No vul, they vul, we vul, both vul, and the effect of first, second, third and fourth seat on each of these auctions.

Needless to say, the number is, well, unimaginable large.

Don't forget that you will need a complete set of these sequences for each possible bidding system your opps play.
I'm sure interventions with natural NT or Polish NT are handled differently.

[csdenmark]

hotShot, on Jan 5 2007, 12:54 PM, said:

inquiry, on Jan 5 2007, 06:22 AM, said:

DrTodd13, on Jan 4 2007, 10:50 PM, said:

122,893,575,331,256,561,160,221,384,015,627,127,210,253,484,032

Actually, this 48 digit number looks about right. However, from the perspective of FD, it is a huge underestimate. This is just the possible auctions, but FD also takes into consideration all the various vulnerable conditions. No vul, they vul, we vul, both vul, and the effect of first, second, third and fourth seat on each of these auctions.

Needless to say, the number is, well, unimaginable large.

Don't forget that you will need a complete set of these sequences for each possible bidding system your opps play.
I'm sure interventions with natural NT or Polish NT are handled differently.

No problem at all. Such devices will within a year or so be able to hold millions of complete systems including all features. Space is no problem.

Performance is the problem and it is here FD need important development. I am completely sure Fred knows that. Such will be decisive for bridge to be broadcasted as WEB-TV which will be my guess for what Fred has in mind for the future - maybe not so faraway future. If such is going to come through bridge need to be ruled back. Right now bridge is ruled back to Whist - thats where it all started with Culbertson. How to create the images if not mobil-phones?

FD need features for display, analyzing and forecasts - maybe integration with GIB.

[hrothgar]

I think that it would be useful to distinquish between three separate issues:

Issue 1: Would it be techically feasible to use a program like Full Disclosure for Face-to-Face play? I think that the answer to this is a definite "maybe". I think that arguing about what technology is available 15 years down the road is pretty pointless. You end up making quotes like "No one will ever need or use over 640Kilobytes of memory"

Issue 2: Would it be desirable to replace traditional "convention cards" with an FD type application? As I've commented before, I think that the FD application is pretty sweet. I'd like to see its use spread. If it becomes technologically feasible to use the FD app in face-to-face play, I think that it should be permitted. (Needless to say, there are a lot of issues that would need to get worked out before Bermuda Bowl applications will be required to submit an FD file. However, there's time)

Issue 3: Should players who are engaged in a "formal" competition be permitted to use FD as a cheat sheet? I think that virtually everyone here would agree that the answer to this is a resounding "no".

[csdenmark]

hrothgar, on Jan 5 2007, 05:34 PM, said:

I think that it would be useful to distinquish between three separate issues:

Issue 1:  Would it be techically feasible to use a program like Full Disclosure for Face-to-Face play?  I think that the answer to this is a definite "maybe".  I think that arguing about what technology is available 15 years down the road is pretty pointless.  You end up making quotes like "No one will ever need or use over 640Kilobytes of memory"

Issue 2:  Would it be desirable to replace traditional "convention cards" with an FD type application?  As I've commented before, I think that the FD application is pretty sweet.  I'd like to see its use spread.  If it becomes technologically feasible to use the FD app in face-to-face play, I think that it should be permitted.  (Needless to say, there are a lot of issues that would need to get worked out before Bermuda Bowl applications will be required to submit an FD file.  However, there's time)

Issue 3:  Should players who are engaged in a "formal" competition be permitted to use FD as a cheat sheet?  I think that virtually everyone here would agree that the answer to this is a resounding "no".

Issue 1: Would it be techically feasible to use a program like Full Disclosure for Face-to-Face play? I think that the answer to this is a definite "maybe". I think that arguing about what technology is available 15 years down the road is pretty pointless. You end up making quotes like "No one will ever need or use over 640Kilobytes of memory"
There are no real technical problems. The problems are inside the heads of old lawyers with no interest and insufficient knowledge. Those are harmful to the game. They need to study or leave seat. Not so difficult I think. Time is very limited and they have been off-track for several years now.

Issue 2: Would it be desirable to replace traditional "convention cards" with an FD type application? As I've commented before, I think that the FD application is pretty sweet. I'd like to see its use spread. If it becomes technologically feasible to use the FD app in face-to-face play, I think that it should be permitted. (Needless to say, there are a lot of issues that would need to get worked out before Bermuda Bowl applications will be required to submit an FD file. However, there's time)
They are forced to provide a pdf-file which is an outdated format as it is nothing but an electronic version of a piece of paper. That format was outdated 20 years ago introducing relation databases as 4th generation tools.

Issue 3: Should players who are engaged in a "formal" competition be permitted to use FD as a cheat sheet? I think that virtually everyone here would agree that the answer to this is a resounding "no".
I have never been impressed of the general level of knowledge about technological challenges. Neither by those posting here or others. So a NO from those means they have still a lot of homework to do. Paying lips to authorities is no new phenomen - thats in fact what everybody who are interested in options need to fight against. - The problem here is bridge has been down the line now for 15 years or so. Unfortunately we are close to the bottom.

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Jan 5 2007, 07:24 PM, said:

Issue 1:  Would it be techically feasible to use a program like Full Disclosure for Face-to-Face play?  I think that the answer to this is a definite "maybe".  I think that arguing about what technology is available 15 years down the road is pretty pointless.  You end up making quotes like "No one will ever need or use over 640Kilobytes of memory"[/color]
There are no real technical problems. The problems are inside the heads of old lawyers with no interest and insufficient knowledge. Those are harmful to the game. They need to study or leave seat. Not so difficult I think. Time is very limited and they have been off-track for several years now.

Every time I see you post I'm astounded that some cult hasn't swept you up, given you a week or two of re-education, and dispatched you to sell flowers in an airport somewhere. The combination of your absolute certainty and appalling ignorance would seem irresistable...

Where do you get this belief that there are no technical problems rolling out an FD type application for F2F play?

What is it going to run on? Are we going to require that every bridge player in a "real" tournament go out and invest $200 and purchase a Pocket PC?

Even if you're willing to dictate that everyone must shell out all that money, how are you going to deal with the whole age issue? Here in the US, the average age of bridge players is 68. My parents are actually somewhat computer savy these days. They can use web browsers and email. My dad just got hooked on Tetris. There's no way in hell that they'd every want to sit down and peck away at a pocket PC. The don't get cell phones because they're too complicated.

There are a lot of very complicated adoption issues here.

My own suspicion is the following: If FD ever migrates into the F2F game it will come about because the F2F game gets subsumed by the electronic version. There are a number of Bridge Clubs in the world that actually have a fairly reasonable capital budget. They invest in Dealing machines, wireless scorepads, all sorts of little gizmos. At some point in time, the price of laptops and the like might drop sufficiently that a club might run its own local version of BBO. Folks could still gather together and enjoy some of the social benefits associated with the well run club (the beer card is much less fun without beer). However, the members would benefit from the advantages provided by the electronic playing environment.

I can (potentially) see something like this happen, but its gonna take quite some time.

[csdenmark]

What is it going to run on? Are we going to require that every bridge player in a "real" tournament go out and invest $200 and purchase a Pocket PC?
Certainly not - this is going to come step by step problably starting with national championships.

What is important is the signal; turning the direction; ruling bridge back on track. I doubt those in charge of bridge today will ever be able to lead the community as a whole into a safe heaven. Time is short - 10 years I give them if they make no further mistakes.

Where do you get this belief that there are no technical problems rolling out an FD type application for F2F play?
In itself Bidedit as it is today is a fairly simple application. You ought to know that Richard. Your comments are very disappointing as they reveals problems I thought I never would find by you.

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Jan 5 2007, 08:26 PM, said:

In itself Bidedit as it is today is a fairly simple application. You ought to know that Richard. Your comments are very disappointing as they reveals problems I thought I never would find by you.

Look back to the forum discussions about the FD application. These are FULL of people stating that

BidEdit is too complicated
I can't figure out how to use the application
I tried for hours and hours and couldn't do anything

How many different quotes you want? 10? 20? I can find them if you don't believe me.

These comments are comming from forum posters who are, almost by definition, much more tech savy than the vast majority of the user base out there. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the bridge users out there don't know how to load a third party app like Bid Edit onto a smart phone. (You don't really believe that any of the carriers are gonna support this in one of their portals do you?)

Its not gonna fly any time soon.

[barmar]

csdenmark, on Jan 5 2007, 11:24 AM, said:

Issue 3: Should players who are engaged in a "formal" competition be permitted to use FD as a cheat sheet? I think that virtually everyone here would agree that the answer to this is a resounding "no".
I have never been impressed of the general level of knowledge about technological challenges. Neither by those posting here or others. So a NO from those means they have still a lot of homework to do. Paying lips to authorities is no new phenomen - thats in fact what everybody who are interested in options need to fight against. - The problem here is bridge has been down the line now for 15 years or so. Unfortunately we are close to the bottom.

But this isn't a "technological" question in the first place. This issue revolves around what we want our game to be about.

Bridge is a "mind sport", and memory is a feature of the mind. We expect the game to challenge memory abilities, and it's reasonable that people with better memories will be better players, all other things being equal. If your memory isn't so good, your challenge is to make up for it in other ways, such as having a small number of good meta-conventions rather than a large number of detailed conventions.

Just because technology exists to supplement our natural capabilities doesn't mean we should take advantage of it. Would baseball be improved if the bats had laser targeting to ensure that you hit the ball squarely?

In fact, many games frequently struggle with this question. There was resistance for many years to large-faced rackets in tennis, and aluminum bats in baseball, but eventually they were allowed. But these didn't fundamentally change the nature of the game, they were just gradual improvements in the same old equipment, and they were equally useful to all players. I'd say they're analogous to the advent of bidding boxes in bridge, or online bridge's prevention of many simple infractions (e.g. bid/play out of turn, insufficient bids). Switching from memory-based systems to cheat sheets is a much more radical change in our game, and must be considered on its own merits, not just because the technology is there.