[barmar]

mike777, on Nov 30 2006, 07:45 PM, said:

I was shocked to read that Fred thought many of the online ACBL games are as good or better than the average local club games. In my other post I asked this question and the vast majority responded that the ACBL tourneys were much worse.

Online tourneys are significantly larger than most club games. As a result, there's probably a larger skill range in the online games. Also, in areas with multiple clubs, players are likely to gravitate towards the clubs with other players similar to themselves; novices will often prefer clubs that offer lessons and separate beginner games, rather than playing against the "big boys".

[pigpenz]

I know in my own experience, the club where I cut my teeth has about 20 regulars who are in the top 500. The thursday night game was the best, the saturday night game was nicknamed the drunk pairs

[barmar]

What club is that -- how big are the games? Here in the Boston area, few club games have more than about about 25 tables. I think our entire unit (EMBA) only has about a dozen players in the top 500.

There do seem to be a few parts of the coutry where bridge pros are concentrated, like south Florida where there are lots of wealthy retirees who form the bulk of their client base. So I wouldn't be surprised to find that these clubs have large numbers of top players.

[pigpenz]

barmar, on Dec 3 2006, 01:19 AM, said:

What club is that -- how big are the games? Here in the Boston area, few club games have more than about about 25 tables. I think our entire unit (EMBA) only has about a dozen players in the top 500.

There do seem to be a few parts of the coutry where bridge pros are concentrated, like south Florida where there are lots of wealthy retirees who form the bulk of their client base. So I wouldn't be surprised to find that these clubs have large numbers of top players.

back in the late 70's early 80's our thursday night came used to draw people from 4 different states. The club was in Omaha, NE. Very very very good field!

[pigpenz]

fred, on Nov 30 2006, 01:52 PM, said:

Answering questions from Pigpenz:


In order to run an ACBL-sanctioned tournament, you need a sanction from the ACBL. BBO has such a sanction and Gweny is responsible for scheduling and administering the games that are run under this sanction.

If a 3rd party wishes to run ACBL tournaments under our sanction, they should get in touch with Gweny. If a 3rd party wants to apply for their own sanction to run ACBL tournaments on our site, I doubt we would want to get involved. However, as far as I can remember nobody has ever made us a proposal along these lines. If someone wanted us to consider such a proposal, I would suggest they e-mail it to me and/or Uday.

Fred:
Have talked numerous times with Steve Pickett from Homebase Club and he feels that if he could have an acbl sanctioned game he might be able to make his BBO club game get off the ground.
1.people dont care about hand anlaysis
2.people dont care about free use of bridgebrowser
3.people dont care about bbo points
4.people care and want acbl masterpoints

now if he had an acbl sanction to run games on BBO what difference would it make it to BBO? They would still be able to make their $$$ the ACBL would still make their $$$ and there would be another place on BBO for people to play and earn masterpoints. To me it would seem like it would be less headaches for BBO It seems like it would be a win win situation for everyone. If the club wasnt run properly it could lose it ACBL sanction, the club could handle their own problems without everylittle thing being sent to abuse@bbo, to me it just seems like it would be a nobrainer since there wouldnt really be anywork for BBO, unless its the control BBO is worried about?

[mike777]

pigpenz, on Dec 4 2006, 12:51 PM, said:

barmar, on Dec 3 2006, 01:19 AM, said:

What club is that -- how big are the games?  Here in the Boston area, few club games have more than about about 25 tables.  I think our entire unit (EMBA) only has about a dozen players in the top 500.

There do seem to be a few parts of the coutry where bridge pros are concentrated, like south Florida where there are lots of wealthy retirees who form the bulk of their client base.  So I wouldn't be surprised to find that these clubs have large numbers of top players.

back in the late 70's early 80's our thursday night came used to draw people from 4 different states. The club was in Omaha, NE. Very very very good field!

What a difference, people used to drive to another state in the middle of the week to play a club game. Now we complain when our internet connection is too slow

[fred]

pigpenz, on Dec 4 2006, 06:00 PM, said:

fred, on Nov 30 2006, 01:52 PM, said:

Answering questions from Pigpenz:


In order to run an ACBL-sanctioned tournament, you need a sanction from the ACBL. BBO has such a sanction and Gweny is responsible for scheduling and administering the games that are run under this sanction.

If a 3rd party wishes to run ACBL tournaments under our sanction, they should get in touch with Gweny. If a 3rd party wants to apply for their own sanction to run ACBL tournaments on our site, I doubt we would want to get involved. However, as far as I can remember nobody has ever made us a proposal along these lines. If someone wanted us to consider such a proposal, I would suggest they e-mail it to me and/or Uday.

Fred:
Have talked numerous times with Steve Pickett from Homebase Club and he feels that if he could have an acbl sanctioned game he might be able to make his BBO club game get off the ground.
1.people dont care about hand anlaysis
2.people dont care about free use of bridgebrowser
3.people dont care about bbo points
4.people care and want acbl masterpoints

now if he had an acbl sanction to run games on BBO what difference would it make it to BBO? They would still be able to make their $$$ the ACBL would still make their $$$ and there would be another place on BBO for people to play and earn masterpoints. To me it would seem like it would be less headaches for BBO It seems like it would be a win win situation for everyone. If the club wasnt run properly it could lose it ACBL sanction, the club could handle their own problems without everylittle thing being sent to abuse@bbo, to me it just seems like it would be a nobrainer since there wouldnt really be anywork for BBO, unless its the control BBO is worried about?

If Stephen Pickett (or anyone else) is interested in running ACBL-sanctioned games on BBO he should follow the advice I gave earlier in this thread:

If he wants to use our sanction he should e-mail gweny@bridgebase.com.

If he wants to use his own sanction he should e-mail me or Uday.

I would rather not get involved in a public discussion as to whether or not this would be good for BBO and why or why not. If and when Stephen (or whoever) sends us a proposal this is something we will have to decide for ourselves.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pigpenz]

mike777, on Dec 4 2006, 01:47 PM, said:

pigpenz, on Dec 4 2006, 12:51 PM, said:

barmar, on Dec 3 2006, 01:19 AM, said:

What club is that -- how big are the games?  Here in the Boston area, few club games have more than about about 25 tables.  I think our entire unit (EMBA) only has about a dozen players in the top 500.

There do seem to be a few parts of the coutry where bridge pros are concentrated, like south Florida where there are lots of wealthy retirees who form the bulk of their client base.  So I wouldn't be surprised to find that these clubs have large numbers of top players.

back in the late 70's early 80's our thursday night came used to draw people from 4 different states. The club was in Omaha, NE. Very very very good field!

What a difference, people used to drive to another state in the middle of the week to play a club game. Now we complain when our internet connection is too slow

well that was 25 yrs ago and Omaha is right on the border of 2 states making that part easy....but it was not uncommon for people to make a day of it with horse racing at Aksarben.

[Gweny]

Once again Fred you have proven that you are the class of any field.

ACBL tds constantly review and discuss problem hands with fellow tds to improve the skills of the junior members of the team. We are very proud to have an ACBL stable that has such depth and wealth of experience in directing at the National and Regional level in addition to long-time online tds that specialize in online directing.

We always appreciate your help in improving our skills and bringing to our attention any potential flawed rulings so the team can discuss and learn from the event. If you have any concerns about a td please feel free to write to ACBL@bridgebase.com or contact me personally at Gweny@bridgebase.com.

The range of players that play in ACBL on BBO games is truely amazing. It challenges the tds to wear a silk glove as we nurture our new-to-ACBL players as we educating them on the rules of ACBL play while still responding to the needs of our long-time ACBL members.

Our goal is tournaments that everyone from the rank beginner to world class player can enjoy - we want you to go away smiling after 12 boards of good bridge with other like minded pairs/individuals. If you have misconceptions about the spirit of these games you are kindly directed to seek playing opportunities elsewhere.

As always we appreciate your thoughts on ways to improve our schedule of games and suggestions for new games.

As our ACBL community grows we will probably want to consider a face to face convention/tournament so we can put faces to the names we now call friends or respected competitors.

What say you?

Regards,

Gweny

[blackshoe]

Gweny, on Dec 9 2006, 05:05 PM, said:

If you have misconceptions about the spirit of these games you are kindly directed to seek playing opportunities elsewhere.

I don't think what you say here is what you actually intended to say. The tenor of the rest of your message indicates a willingness to teach people how to become good ethical players. This says "if you don't understand the spirit of our games, we aren't going to try to help you. Just go away."

[Gweny]

Yes we DO want to educate people.

The other statement is intended for a entire different sort of participant.

I am refering to people who already know how to play but do not uphold these same thoughts about just having 12 boards of interesting and fun play. Instead they want to give lessons, act arrogant to just about everyone and steal the joy from both partner(s) and opps. Those are the ones that statement was is intended for.

[csdenmark]

Gweny, on Dec 10 2006, 10:55 PM, said:

Yes we DO want to educate people.

The other statement is intended for a entire different sort of participant.

I am refering to people who already know how to play but do not uphold these same thoughts about just having 12 boards of interesting and fun play. Instead they want to give lessons, act arrogant to just about everyone and steal the joy from both partner(s) and opps. Those are the ones that statement was is intended for.

Well done Gwen.

I really support your hard work trying to push the participants into a position where they need to prove they are cooperative. We really need some who take a firm position and try to pursue their objectives. All ought to support you in this hard struggle to the benefit of all.

[blackshoe]

Gweny said:

The other statement is intended for a entire different sort of participant.

I figured as much, but your post wasn't clear.

Gweny said:

I am refering to people who already know how to play but do not uphold these same thoughts about just having 12 boards of interesting and fun play. Instead they want to give lessons, act arrogant to just about everyone and steal the joy from both partner(s) and opps. Those are the ones that statement was is intended for.

Perhaps "If you do not wish to play in such a way as to ensure that no one's enjoyment of the game is lessened by your attitude or comments, please find another game."

BTW, I do appreciate your efforts Keep on with 'em!

[mike777]

Just tried fast pairs for the first time tonight. Nice fast game with what seemed no more silly errors by me than in a slower game..... Hope to see more of them.

[rona_]

Quote

We always appreciate your help in improving our skills and bringing to our attention any potential flawed rulings so the team can discuss and learn from the event. If you have any concerns about a td please feel free to write to ACBL@bridgebase.com or contact me personally at Gweny@bridgebase.com.

I think this is the crux of the problem. Let's assume that you were the TD who made the adjustment in the hand mentioned in this thread, what benefit would it be to anyone to email ACBL@bridgebase, or gweny@ bridgebase, or discuss the issue with ACBL_4 who might have been the TD and is also you, since you are one and the same? In my view it is a legitimate conflict of interest issue.

Rona

[mycroft]

You are right, rona, that is the crux of the problem.

If you rant about how unfair the ruling is to ACBL_# or ***@bridgebase.com, they're likely going to ignore you. Frankly, that's what anybody is going to do - you'd probably do it too, if someone came up to you in your job and just went off about how you're rooking them.

If you explain that you believe this ruling was wrong, because of X and Y, or it violated Law N, or "'Protect-the-field' isn't in the law-book, why was this adjusted?" or any other reasoned argument (it doesn't even have to be based in legality, a quick "could you please show me the Law you used for the ruling?" would probably work) - and feel free to ask others, including TDs, before writing up the request (don't rant to them, either, though) - they'll think about it, discuss it with others, maybe even learn something.

How do I know that? Because that's what I do. That's what my colleagues do. That's what any respectable director does - unless we think we know everything, or don't care about getting things right, or don't want to learn. And if you are assuming that, then, yeah, that is the crux of the problem, whether you're right or wrong.

As far as conflict of interest is concerned, BBO ACBL is an ACBL club like any other, and in 90% of them, the TD is the owner and the operator (of at least some of the games). Sure, you can talk to the ACBL about it, but all they can do is yank the sanction, and they have a very "hands off" attitude to their relevant clubs - you'll pretty much have to prove major malfeasance to do that. It doesn't matter if the club is bricks-and-mortar or online. At least online you get your choice of TDs, and a $1 game.

Michael.

[glen]

rona_, on Dec 11 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

I think this is the crux of the problem. Let's assume that you  were the TD who made the adjustment in the hand mentioned in this thread, what benefit would it be to anyone to email ACBL@bridgebase, or gweny@ bridgebase, or discuss the issue with ACBL_4 who might have been the TD and is also you, since you are one and the same? In my view it is a legitimate conflict of interest issue.

I don't believe this is the crux of the problem, but instead is the crux of the solution to the problem. Even if the TD is the same, the benefit of discussing the issue is to move towards a common understanding, or, at least see each others viewpoints. Once the walls come down, this often goes a long way to eliminating bitter feelings that sometimes arise.

For those who get the ACBL bulletin, the December 06 issue has a Zero Tolerance type case presented in The Hat Lady - Bridge Manners & Etiquette column (which I find is very well written) - too short summary: Swiss match, LHO storms out, TD plays hands, LHO returns, claims in contract, trump still out, claims revoke happened, replay shows no revoke, storms out again, TD plays next hand, LHO returns to accuse others of "many transgressions", TD later says LHO has problems and player should leave it alone.

Quoting from the article:

Marie Sander, on Dec 06 ACBL Bulletin, said:

Since this was a club game, and the director is reliant on your good will and continued patronage for his living, tell him in no uncertain terms that you will never come back if he drops the ball on you again.  Smart business people know dissatisfied customers complain to six people, while happy campers brag only to two.  Do not go in fear, begging to be protected.  Instead go in there like a friend.

In short the Hat Lady (Marie Sander) recommends first talking with the TD, in a friendly manner. This seems the right first move, instead of writing directly to the ACBL in Memphis (though give the ACBL credit for publishing this column). Now if talking to the TD makes no progress, or discussion degenerates, then one would try to reach club ownership (if not the TD), or others.

In ACBL BBO tourneys, the TD is often unable to have a substantial discussion on a problem, and often leaves once the tourney is completed. Thus I believe the right approach when faced with a serious problem that occured in a tourney is to open a discussion with the TD's proxy, acbl@bridgebase.com. One exception to this would be if there is already a policy in place (or defacto policy) for the particular problem, and thus the issue would be better in open widespread discussion, such as in this forum, to determine what the best policy should be.

[pigpenz]

officeglen, on Dec 11 2006, 04:43 PM, said:

Thus I believe the right approach when faced with a serious problem that occured in a tourney is to open a discussion with the TD's proxy, acbl@bridgebase.com. One exception to this would be if there is already a policy in place (or defacto policy) for the particular problem, and thus the issue would be better in open widespread discussion, such as in this forum, to determine what the best policy should be.

Maybe it migt be in the intest of ACBL BBO to open up their own forums for members who play in the ACBL BBO games. I dont mean here on these forums but a seperate forum just like Homebase Club has their own forum. And it would be great for the ACBL BBO to publicize the forum if they ever start it. Probably about 50% of the responders to posts about acbl bbo games are by regular forum members who never play in acbl bbo games.

[mike777]

Great idea! Gwen?