[keylime]

Uday,

I think you can have an AC available in realtime. Why can't we assemble a pool to draw from, just like in real life where we go ask certain players what they would do?

I agree that stuff does happen. It's the rub of the green, and we all should accept that from time to time.

I am grateful that BBO is working diligently to stem the "c" issue. However, I don't want it to be the sole obsession so to speak - if we end up hosting sectionals or regionals in the future, obviously everything will need improving, including the ability to prevent "c" and "AC's" and the like.

I hope that you've taken my concern for what it is, concern - and not slander or jab at the TD's. I think we both can say, most of the time, they get it right, and do a solid job in soothing our player's emotions when needed.

[glen]

uday, on Nov 24 2006, 07:11 PM, said:

Every tourney table has a 'Director!' button. Pressing this button will summon the TD. Sending the TD a private chat runs the risk of that chat being lost in the flood of other chat from people who are chatting away.

However this button is not available once all boards have been completed, even though at this time the player may have a problem to follow up about.

[Walddk]

An AC is even more important and needed online than in ftf bridge. TD rulings in real life (whether they are correct or not) are at least based on interpretations of the laws. We all know that they are not in most cases on the internet.

On BBO and anywhere else on the net, every TD rules as he/she sees fit. Some actually follow the laws when they give a ruling, but most don't.

Roland

[pigpenz]

Walddk, on Nov 24 2006, 02:34 PM, said:

An AC is even more important and needed online than in ftf bridge. TD rulings in real life (whether they are correct or not) are at least based on interpretations of the laws. We all know that they are not in most cases on the internet.

On BBO and anywhere else on the net, every TD rules as he/she sees fit. Some actually follow the laws when they give a ruling, but most don't.

Roland

maybe if there were to be an appeals committee it should be done like what they have don at nationals......have those wanting an appeal pay the cost of say the entry fee $1 and if the appeal is deemed frivolous then they forfeit the $1....now who determines if the appeal is frivolous is another topic

[Elianna]

barmar, on Nov 24 2006, 04:46 AM, said:

There's really no substitute for experience, IMHO. ACBL BBO tourneys are larger than most f2f club games -- they're more like sectional tournaments in size. And I believe ACBL has a more advanced certification requirement for tournament directors than club directors. Are any of the BBO TDs tournament directors, or are they just club directors?

While it's true that there are other qualifications for being a regional or national director, if you are qualified to be a club director, you are qualified to be a sectional director. The only question is if you get hired by the unit putting on the sectional.

Here in LA, all our sectional directors (that I've seen at least) are actually regionally rated if not nationally rated. And I can still remember some awful rulings.

[jillybean]

An AP would be great and would also help all TD's hone their skills & promote a better over all understanding of the laws with the players.

One way to prevent unnecessarywork from Appeals Without Merit would be to have a 2 tier approach, the first level could use something like this forum and then if the player was still unsatisified they could escalate it a more formal AP. I think many problems would be resolved at the first level if they often occur when the TD is unwilling or does not have the time to discuss a ruling with the players.

[fred]

My thoughts:

1) Uday's statement that our ACBL tourneys are basically club games is of critical importance. If you think of yourself as a serious player and if you are incapable of taking these club games as unseriously as they should be taken, you should not play in them (and not complain about them).

2) Of course we care about TD quality and we believe we have effective mechanisms in place for improving the quality of our TDs. That being said, Uday's statement that not all rulings by all TDs will satisfy all players is a necessary truth. Even in cases when the TD makes the perfect ruling, the chances are excellent that the side that was ruled against will disagree.

3) I find it beyond obnoxious that people state with authority that a given ruling by a given TD is "wrong". Who do you think you are? Most really good players I know are humble enough to admit that most ruling situations in which a TD's judgment has to come into play do not have obvious answers. The TD is often in a no-win situation - no matter what ruling he/she makes, someone will not like it.

4) Historically we have seen that many players who complain that TDs are not communicative enough have not exactly been polite in their attempts to communicate with the TD. These people tend to not mention their own bad manners when they complain about the manners of our TDs. Furthermore, even those that are polite fail to appreciate the sometimes our TDs are too busy to immediately respond to every message that they receive.

5) My opinion is that appeals committee do not work in live bridge games. They do not improve the quality of rulings, they create severe bad feelings among players, and they slow down the publication of final results. As in point 2 above, even if a given appeals committee makes the perfect ruling, the chances are excellent that the side that was ruled against will disagree. The problem will shift from "the TD sucks" to "the AC sucks".

6) Even if you disagree with me about the value of appeals committees (many would), I am certain that the vast majority of our ACBL players would not want there to be such committees in our ACBL games. Reasons:

- the vast majority of our ACBL players rarely (if ever) call the TD in the first place
- the vast majority of our ACBL players are willing to accept the decisions that our TDs make, even if they disagree with some of these decisions
- the vast majority of our ACBL players would resent having to spend time after the tourney ends answering questions from committee members
- the vast majority of our ACBL players very much appreciate knowing their final standing soon after they finish playing
- the vast majority of our ACBL players would feel that their relative lack of experience in dealing with committees (compared to the small number of Secretary Bird types who would no doubt be responsible for most appeals) would place them at a disadvantage

7) Please lighten up. If you are having trouble doing that, please reread point 1 above. If you still can't lighten up, please find a venue for bridge that is more appropriate for a player of your level of seriousness than our ACBL games.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[glen]

My counter thoughts

0) What in the world are you doing writing this long post when you could be on the beach - or did you write this on the beach?

1) Agree - club games, nothing more.

2) Agree - club TDs will never be close to perfect

3) Another view - If some will like a ruling, and some will not, this is not "no win" - this is "some happy, some unhappy". The TD then needs to finesse the unhappy into some sort of "well okay", or provide escalation to achieve this state.

4) Another view - TDs clearly become too busy at points during the tourney - somehow they need to later get back, even if after the tourney is over and the results are final, to the player. While delayed responding is fine, even if much later, never responding is never good. As to "not exactly been polite", TDs will need to calm players down from time to time - certainly one sees this f2f - sometimes even TDs have lost it, though usually its the customers.

5) Agree - I even find appeal committees at regional levels a waste of effort for everybody involved (the players, the TD, the committee members), let alone a 12 board online club game.

6) Agree - I believe the vast majority of tourney players feel the same way.

7) Disagree - I don't think the answer is to move the customer to another venue. I believe instead the tourneys need a clearly communicated follow-up mechanism that allows players to voice concerns without resorting to public forums. This would be on the lines of "if you have had problems during this tourney, please email us at problems@us.bbo and we will get back to you. While we cannot change the result of the tourney once it is over, we are always looking for ways to improve the quality of each player's experience." Most times people don't want the result fixed, they just need somebody to listen to them, reply, admit that a mistake has happened when it happens, and sometimes even (gasp) refund the tourney entry fee for good will.

Just biked home in Canadian November weather - I would take advantage of any nice beach weather.

[fred]

officeglen, on Nov 24 2006, 11:25 PM, said:

0) What in the world are you doing writing this long post when you could be on the beach - or did you write this on the beach?

My hotel room has a balcony overlooking the beach. That is where I wrote the long post.

I have learned the hard way that computers and beaches do not go well together. Sand can really mess up a laptop

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[barmar]

pigpenz, on Nov 24 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

maybe if there were to be an appeals committee it should be done like what they have don at nationals......have those wanting an appeal pay the cost of say the entry fee $1 and if the appeal is deemed frivolous then they forfeit the $1....now who determines if the appeal is frivolous is another topic

ACBL got rid of the appeal deposit years ago. They replaced it with "Appeal Without Merit" points -- they track how many times you file for frivolous appeals, and if you have too many there's some kind of penalty (I don't know what it is, though).

The frivolity of the appeal is decided by the AC itself.

[jillybean]

fred, on Nov 24 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

My thoughts:

1) Uday's statement that our ACBL tourneys are basically club games is of critical importance. If you think of yourself as a serious player and if you are incapable of taking these club games as unseriously as they should be taken, you should not play in them (and not complain about them).

2) Of course we care about TD quality and we believe we have effective mechanisms in place for improving the quality of our TDs. That being said, Uday's statement that not all rulings by all TDs will satisfy all players is a necessary truth. Even in cases when the TD makes the perfect ruling, the chances are excellent that the side that was ruled against will disagree.

3) I find it beyond obnoxious that people state with authority that a given ruling by a given TD is "wrong". Who do you think you are? Most really good players I know are humble enough to admit that most ruling situations in which a TD's judgment has to come into play do not have obvious answers. The TD is often in a no-win situation - no matter what ruling he/she makes, someone will not like it.

4) Historically we have seen that many players who complain that TDs are not communicative enough have not exactly been polite in their attempts to communicate with the TD. These people tend to not mention their own bad manners when they complain about the manners of our TDs. Furthermore, even those that are polite fail to appreciate the sometimes our TDs are too busy to immediately respond to every message that they receive.

5) My opinion is that appeals committee do not work in live bridge games. They do not improve the quality of rulings, they create severe bad feelings among players, and they slow down the publication of final results. As in point 2 above, even if a given appeals committee makes the perfect ruling, the chances are excellent that the side that was ruled against will disagree. The problem will shift from "the TD sucks" to "the AC sucks".

6) Even if you disagree with me about the value of appeals committees (many would), I am certain that the vast majority of our ACBL players would not want there to be such committees in our ACBL games. Reasons:

- the vast majority of our ACBL players rarely (if ever) call the TD in the first place
- the vast majority of our ACBL players are willing to accept the decisions that our TDs make, even if they disagree with some of these decisions
- the vast majority of our ACBL players would resent having to spend time after the tourney ends answering questions from committee members
- the vast majority of our ACBL players very much appreciate knowing their final standing soon after they finish playing
- the vast majority of our ACBL players would feel that their relative lack of experience in dealing with committees (compared to the small number of Secretary Bird types who would no doubt be responsible for most appeals) would place them at a disadvantage

7) Please lighten up. If you are having trouble doing that, please reread point 1 above. If you still can't lighten up, please find a venue for bridge that is more appropriate for a player of your level of seriousness than our ACBL games.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Who do I think I am? I am someone of little significance here and I have only a tiny fraction of the knowledge and experience you and others have in this game but I feel strongly enough to respond to this. Since joining BBO and these forums I have spent more time studying the laws than your average player probably would. I have since seen the hand in question and stand by what I originally said.

I was surprised to hear you say that the ACBL tournaments are intended as “unserious” games. I think the people who are making all the noise perhaps care a great deal about the game and have the expectation that this should be serious bridge. Be it be the players are rude, the td’s are too busy or people don’t know the laws there is apparently a gap between players expectations and what is happening. I can’t see it being good for BBO, the players or the game to tell the serious players to go elsewhere. No one is expecting or asking that everyone is made happy all of the time but for a fair process when a problem does occur.

[fred]

jillybean2, on Nov 30 2006, 06:15 AM, said:

fred, on Nov 24 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

My thoughts:

1) Uday's statement that our ACBL tourneys are basically club games is of critical importance. If you think of yourself as a serious player and if you are incapable of taking these club games as unseriously as they should be taken, you should not play in them (and not complain about them).

2) Of course we care about TD quality and we believe we have effective mechanisms in place for improving the quality of our TDs. That being said, Uday's statement that not all rulings by all TDs will satisfy all players is a necessary truth. Even in cases when the TD makes the perfect ruling, the chances are excellent that the side that was ruled against will disagree.

3) I find it beyond obnoxious that people state with authority that a given ruling by a given TD is "wrong". Who do you think you are? Most really good players I know are humble enough to admit that most ruling situations in which a TD's judgment has to come into play do not have obvious answers. The TD is often in a no-win situation - no matter what ruling he/she makes, someone will not like it.

4) Historically we have seen that many players who complain that TDs are not communicative enough have not exactly been polite in their attempts to communicate with the TD. These people tend to not mention their own bad manners when they complain about the manners of our TDs. Furthermore, even those that are polite fail to appreciate the sometimes our TDs are too busy to immediately respond to every message that they receive.

5) My opinion is that appeals committee do not work in live bridge games. They do not improve the quality of rulings, they create severe bad feelings among players, and they slow down the publication of final results. As in point 2 above, even if a given appeals committee makes the perfect ruling, the chances are excellent that the side that was ruled against will disagree. The problem will shift from "the TD sucks" to "the AC sucks".

6) Even if you disagree with me about the value of appeals committees (many would), I am certain that the vast majority of our ACBL players would not want there to be such committees in our ACBL games. Reasons:

- the vast majority of our ACBL players rarely (if ever) call the TD in the first place
- the vast majority of our ACBL players are willing to accept the decisions that our TDs make, even if they disagree with some of these decisions
- the vast majority of our ACBL players would resent having to spend time after the tourney ends answering questions from committee members
- the vast majority of our ACBL players very much appreciate knowing their final standing soon after they finish playing
- the vast majority of our ACBL players would feel that their relative lack of experience in dealing with committees (compared to the small number of Secretary Bird types who would no doubt be responsible for most appeals) would place them at a disadvantage

7) Please lighten up. If you are having trouble doing that, please reread point 1 above. If you still can't lighten up, please find a venue for bridge that is more appropriate for a player of your level of seriousness than our ACBL games.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Who do I think I am? I am someone of little significance here and I have only a tiny fraction of the knowledge and experience you and others have in this game but I feel strongly enough to respond to this. Since joining BBO and these forums I have spent more time studying the laws than your average player probably would. I have since seen the hand in question and stand by what I originally said.

I was surprised to hear you say that the ACBL tournaments are intended as “unserious” games. I think the people who are making all the noise perhaps care a great deal about the game and have the expectation that this should be serious bridge. Be it be the players are rude, the td’s are too busy or people don’t know the laws there is apparently a gap between players expectations and what is happening. I can’t see it being good for BBO, the players or the game to tell the serious players to go elsewhere. No one is expecting or asking that everyone is made happy all of the time but for a fair process when a problem does occur.

I seem to have struck a nerve, but I think you have misread my post (or maybe I have misread yours).

My "who do you think you are?" did not refer to you (or any other specific person for that matter). I admire your dedication to trying to improve both as a director and as a player. More important, it is clear from your posts that you are not one of the know-it-all types that I was referring to. You are careful to express your opinions as opinions and you are eager to ask for the opinions of others who might have more knowledge and experience than you do.

My question was directed at those who lack your humility - people who express their opinions as if they were facts. This irritates me because I believe there are some aspects of both bridge play and bridge law in which the "right" answer either does not really exist or is all but impossible to discover. It especially irritates me when people with zero track record assert with complete confidence that they are right and an experienced TD or accomplished player is wrong about a matter in which right and wrong are really a matter of judgment.

I was not referring to you or anyone else in particular, but I have seen this general attitude again and again both in Forums posts and in the way some of our ACBL TDs are treated by some of our ACBL players. My opinion is that this attitude is not only rude, ignorant, arrogant, etc, it is also highly detrimental to our ACBL games and to the people who play in these games.

I don't care if these people really are "right" some of the time - I feel strongly that our ACBL tournaments would be better off without such players.

And I did not say that our ACBL tournaments are intended as "unserious" games. I said that serious players should see them this way. By serious players I mean people who are successful in major tournaments or people who think they are as good as such players even if they don't have the trophies to prove it. Sorry if I was not clear about this.

If such players choose to play in our ACBL tournaments, they should know what they are getting into. They should not hold the players in these tournaments to the same standards that they hold their contemporaries in major tournaments. They should not expect the TDs to be as wise as the TDs that make rulings that decide National Championships (though some of our ACBL TDs are of this standard).

They should expect roughly the same standard of players and TDs that they would find in a typical club game. If such players expect more, not only will they be disappointed and get aggravated, there is a good chance they will ruin the experience for other players and harass the TD to the point that it will be impossible for that person to do their job properly.

I think it's commendable if average players choose to take these games as seriously as they would take the "live" bridge games they typically play in, but if true experts (or those that mistakenly think that they are vastly superior to the rest of the field) cannot relax when they play in our ACBL tournaments, I suspect that the average players (as well as the TDs) would prefer that they not play.

By the way, I have no doubt that you know more about the laws than I do and I have not seen the hand in question. It is entirely possible that the TD judged poorly in this case. I think that if you reread my post that you quoted, you will see that I was not trying to defend any particular TD or ruling or to belittle anyone.

I was merely trying to put these tournaments in what I think is the perspective that a "serious player" (as defined above) should adopt.

I apologize if I offended you or anyone else.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[glen]

Given you admit above you didn't look into the hand in question, I then wondered what you had read in this thread to have produced this reaction:

fred, on Nov 24 2006, 10:44 PM, said:

3) I find it beyond obnoxious that people state with authority that a given ruling by a given TD is "wrong". Who do you think you are? Most really good players I know are humble enough to admit that most ruling situations in which a TD's judgment has to come into play do not have obvious answers. The TD is often in a no-win situation - no matter what ruling he/she makes, someone will not like it.

We have this:

"I like the BBO ACBL games, but I don't take them that seriously. I've had a couple of rotten TD calls. BFD."
"The directors ruling seems groundless to me... "
" dont agree with the ruling can happen at real bridge table."
"I have had numerous bad rulings by ACBL TD's both on BBO and live...."
"Without seeing the board I do not have the complete information but I think using this rationale to adjust a board is flawed"
"However, what concerns me, is that the directors are almost using carte blanche in determining the results of the field when they can not accurately determine what the proper score should be, and this has been ongoing for a significant period of time."

Imo, none of this was stating 'with authority that a given ruling by a given TD is "wrong"', so perhaps you were considering posts in other threads that have been made before?

[fred]

officeglen, on Nov 30 2006, 02:02 PM, said:

Given you admit above you didn't look into the hand in question, I then wondered what you had read in this thread to have produced this reaction:

fred, on Nov 24 2006, 10:44 PM, said:

3) I find it beyond obnoxious that people state with authority that a given ruling by a given TD is "wrong". Who do you think you are? Most really good players I know are humble enough to admit that most ruling situations in which a TD's judgment has to come into play do not have obvious answers. The TD is often in a no-win situation - no matter what ruling he/she makes, someone will not like it.

We have this:

"I like the BBO ACBL games, but I don't take them that seriously. I've had a couple of rotten TD calls. BFD."
"The directors ruling seems groundless to me... "
" dont agree with the ruling can happen at real bridge table."
"I have had numerous bad rulings by ACBL TD's both on BBO and live...."
"Without seeing the board I do not have the complete information but I think using this rationale to adjust a board is flawed"
"However, what concerns me, is that the directors are almost using carte blanche in determining the results of the field when they can not accurately determine what the proper score should be, and this has been ongoing for a significant period of time."

Imo, none of this was stating 'with authority that a given ruling by a given TD is "wrong"', so perhaps you were considering posts in other threads that have been made before?

I get a lot of e-mail from BBO members. Some of these e-mails are complaints about TD rulings in ACBL games. Often the tone of these e-mails is along the lines of:

"Your idiot TD made another idiotic ruling".

As opposed to:

"I disagreed with or did not understand this ruling. What do you think?"

Sometimes I see reports that go to our abuse department in which players harass and insult our ACBL TDs to the point that the TDs refuse to return their chat messages or harass and insult other ACBL players to the point that these players get so upset that they never want to play online bridge again. Often such harassments/insults sound like this: "I know the proper way to explain this convention or the rules governing psychs and if you disagree with me it only proves that you have no clue about how to play/direct this game." or "If you think that Passing the (slow) Double is a logical alternative it only goes to show what a moron you are".

In the past Gweny (who oversees our ACBL program) would occasionally beg me to talk with a player who had upset the TD to the point of tears. I suspect Gweny thought that having a "famous player" like me speak to such a person might help because the player in question was clearly of the opinion his/her great bridge knowledge was superior that of just about everyone else in the universe. Gweny hasn't asked me to get involved in such cases recently - I assume she has found another way to deal with such people.

None of the statements you quote quite fall into this category but a few of them confidently refer to rulings that were "bad" or "rotten" or suggest that TDs use "carte blanche" reasoning. In my opinion there is a big difference between:

"The directors ruling seems groundless to me... "

and

"I have had numerous bad rulings by ACBL TD's"

The former means "I disagree". The later means "I know better".

Besides that, the first quote needs to borrow an apostrophe from the second one

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[pigpenz]

fred, on Nov 24 2006, 05:44 PM, said:

My thoughts:

1) Uday's statement that our ACBL tourneys are basically club games is of critical importance. If you think of yourself as a serious player and if you are incapable of taking these club games as unseriously as they should be taken, you should not play in them (and not complain about them).

Fred:
just reading these posts, dont most people who play ACBL games wouldnt we like to ultimately lead to serious online games comparable to sectional or regional status? So if someone wanted to start a serious online bbo acbl game should they petition the ACBL first or does it all have to be handled by you or Gweny?

In real life there are various forms of club games at all ACBL clubs....some games very serious some real loosely based...so if some people who want to have a serious game, how do they go about implementing it?

Do all ACBL games have to be under the jurisdiction of BBO and Gweny or can other clubs here on BBO petition the ACBL for being able to start their own ACBL club?

You being from Toronto and Las Vegas probably know that there were clubs where you would want to play for the best competition and clubs to avoid cause the caliber of play was very poor. Couldnt it be the same way on BBO? Different clubs have different personalities just like the people who play and post here...some good some bad...but competition usually leads to a better product!

[glen]

I think all net profit should go to BBO - that is other ACBL-BBO accredited clubs could be set up, TDs would be paid the BBO agreed rate for their services, the ACBL their agreed rate, and perhaps an overseer some sort of rate, and the rest of $ (well small fraction of $) would go to the BBO for providing the service, accrediting the club, and putting up with the headaches involved. BBO would be allowed to suspend accrediting the club at any time without providing a reason.

[fred]

Answering questions from Pigpenz:

Quote

just reading these posts, dont most people who play ACBL games wouldnt we like to ultimately lead to serious online games comparable to sectional or regional status?

I don't know. I suspect that many of our ACBL players would like the chance to win more masterpoints online, but that many would have little interest in these things if it meant having to play for several hours in a row or having to compete against a field that might be considerably stronger than the field we have now.

I recall reading somewhere that the majority of ACBL members rarely if ever play in anything other than club games, but I have no idea if these people might be interested in more "serious" tournaments if they were offered online.

Quote

So if someone wanted to start a serious online bbo acbl game should they petition the ACBL first or does it all have to be handled by you or Gweny?

They are not going to be any online Sectionals or Regionals until the ACBL allows this and their current position is to not allow it. For at least a year we have been trying to convince them to change this policy, but it is hard to say if and when this might happen.

As far as "games for more serious players" that do not involve a Sectional or Regional rating go, we tried a "Life Master game" for a while, but it was not popular. I suspect that if enough people asked Gweny to try this again she might be willing to do so.

Quote

In real life there are various forms of club games at all ACBL clubs....some games very serious some real loosely based...so if some people who want to have a serious game, how do they go about implementing it?

In my experience at least, the field in our ACBL tournaments and the quality of our ACBL TDs is considerably higher than that of your average ACBL club. So from that point of view we already rate high on the "seriousness scale". As I mentioned above, our previous attempt to introduce a more serious game open only to accomplished tournament players (Life Masters) was not a success. This leads me to believe that most of our ACBL players are content with the level of seriousness in the games we now have.

If you want to see changes in the way our ACBL tournaments are run or the type of ACBL tournaments we offer, you should e-mail acbl@bridgebase.com, but keep in mind that it takes quite a few people to be interested in playing in a particular type of tournament before it is viable to run such a tournament. In general Gweny is understandably relunctant to introduce new types of tournaments unless either she gets a lot of requests for such a tournament or unless she likes the idea of the tournament so much that she is confident that it will succeed.

Quote

Do all ACBL games have to be under the jurisdiction of BBO and Gweny or can other clubs here on BBO petition the ACBL for being able to start their own ACBL club?

In order to run an ACBL-sanctioned tournament, you need a sanction from the ACBL. BBO has such a sanction and Gweny is responsible for scheduling and administering the games that are run under this sanction.

If a 3rd party wishes to run ACBL tournaments under our sanction, they should get in touch with Gweny. If a 3rd party wants to apply for their own sanction to run ACBL tournaments on our site, I doubt we would want to get involved. However, as far as I can remember nobody has ever made us a proposal along these lines. If someone wanted us to consider such a proposal, I would suggest they e-mail it to me and/or Uday.

Quote

You being from Toronto and Las Vegas probably know that there were clubs where you would want to play for the best competition and clubs to avoid cause the caliber of play was very poor. Couldnt it be the same way on BBO? Different clubs have different personalities just like the people who play and post here...some good some bad...but competition usually leads to a better product!

I once played in a club game in Amsterdam where maybe 1/2 the field was strong enough to have a chance to win a tournament like a Flight A ACBL Regional. The other half of the field, however, were what I would call "typical club players".

I have never played in a club in North America that I would consider even close to being "packed with experts". If such a club exists, I am pretty sure they are playing rubber bridge there - not duplicate. My impression is that most of the really good players in Canada and the USA rarely if ever play in club games.

I know that in North America, the strength of the field varies greatly from club to club.

But I also know they are all clubs and I keep that in mind when I play in them.

When I do play in a club I never call the TD for things like hesitations or bidding misunderstandings. I never make remarks to the players or TDs that I think might upset them (even if they deserve it). I never psych. I never offer unsolicited bridge opinions, but I am more than happy to answer any questions about bridge that my opponents might have. I go out of my way to be friendly and helpful. I could care less if my score ends up being 40% or 70% or how many masterpoints I end up winning.

This is not just because I think that experts should do everything they can to enrich the bridge experiences of their opponents when they choose to play in a game with lesser players. It is also because I learned when I was a teenager that when an expert takes a club game super-seriously he/she will often ruin the experience for everyone involved (including him/herself).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jillybean]

Fred,
Thanks for your comments. I didn’t take “who do you think you are?” entirely personally but having openly questioned these decisions I thought it appropriate to reply personally.
This issue is still not clear to me, I didn't think the problem was the expert players expecting expert quality games but average players expecting a fair game. I could be wrong.

[mike777]

"In my experience at least, the field in our ACBL tournaments and the quality of our ACBL TDs is considerably higher than that of your average ACBL club. So from that point of view we already rate high on the "seriousness scale". As I mentioned above, our previous attempt to introduce a more ...."

I was shocked to read that Fred thought many of the online ACBL games are as good or better than the average local club games. In my other post I asked this question and the vast majority responded that the ACBL tourneys were much worse.

I do not know, I am only asking out of my own curiosity. Thanks in advance.


"They are not going to be any online Sectionals or Regionals until the ACBL allows this and their current position is to not allow it. For at least a year we have been trying to convince them to change this policy, but it is hard to say if and when this might happen."

Alan LeBendig has written that the ACBL is working on this issue and hopes to resolve it and offer these online tourneys in a year.

[fred]

jillybean2, on Nov 30 2006, 10:21 PM, said:

Fred,
Thanks for your comments. I didn’t take “who do you think you are?” entirely personally but having openly questioned these decisions I thought it appropriate to reply personally.
This issue is still not clear to me, I didn't think the problem was the expert players expecting expert quality games but average players expecting a fair game. I could be wrong.

I think these are 2 faces of the same problem: that sometimes the players do not like the rulings that our ACBL TDs make.

Different players react in different ways to this problem. Average players tend to react less often (because they call the TD less often) and less vocally (because they tend to be less sure of themselves and tend to have more confidence in our TDs) than some of the experts (or people who think they are experts) who make a habit of making the lives of our TDs and other players miserable.

There are not many players like you - an self-proclaimed average player who would claim, correctly in your case, to have a strong knowledge of the laws as well as being a person with enough confidence in yourself and enough desire to improve the world to speak up about it.

All of our ACBL players, regardless of the bridge skill or knowledge of the laws, should handle these problems in the same way: by sending a polite e-mail to acbl@bridgebase.com so that we can investigate what happened and what should have happened. If what happened turns out to be very different from what should have happened, the TD in question will find out about it and hopefully he or she will learn from the experience. TDs who consistently make poor rulings and show no signs of improving will eventually be replaced.

If people want to discuss interesting ruling situations in Forums, that is fine of course, provided that they are doing so for the right reasons (for the sake of constructive discussion and not for the purposes of publicly exposing the massive injustices they think they have faced).

If you think that you have been royally screwed by a TD then please go through the proper channels and give our procedures a chance to work. If you don't think these procedures are working then please e-mail BBO management. We will look into it and, if necessary, make changes to either our procedures or find new people to implement these procedures.

It turns out that we really do have a few experts (either real or self-perceived) whose behavior suggests that they have expectations of our ACBL TDs and players that are not realistic. In addition to respecting our rules and procedures like everyone else, these people need to come down to earth.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com