[Cyberyeti]

Matchpoints

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[DavidKok]

Too difficult for me, 4♥.

The traditional approach is to double, then pull partner's response to 4♥ to show extra strength. There are several downsides to this approach: partner may not bid, LHO may raise, and this gives up using the slow route to 4♥ for other problem hands.
I expect the first of these three points to be controversial, and it's valuable to have partnership agreements about what the requirements are to leave such a double in. My experience is that passing with a weak flat hand is often better than bidding 4-over-3, even with the risk of giving away a game bonus, so I need to be particularly concerned that partner applies this theory.
But it's the raise risk that has me most worried. If RHO has 7 spades against our 0, LHO has 3 on average. I really don't want to have to decide what to do over 4♠ without having shown my hearts.

There are quite a few very weak hands where slam is good. Regrettably I'm not confident at all that I'll be able to identify them on the auction. In other words, while 4♥ may well lose to the par, I hope it doesn't lose against the field.

[Tramticket]

We don't need a lot from partner for slam to be good - a few hearts and an ace would do it.

The most practical way to invite slam seems to be 5♥.

[thepossum]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-30, 01:46, said:

Matchpoints

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double or 4 hearts lol

[Cyberyeti]

thepossum, on 2025-May-30, 04:33, said:

double or 4 hearts lol

Well yes, those are the two most likely options

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2025-May-30, 02:01, said:

Too difficult for me, 4♥.

So what's your plan if it goes 4♠-X(pens)-P- ? or 4♠-P-P ?

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-30, 05:54, said:

So what's your plan if it goes 4♠-X(pens)-P- ?

Pass. Partner has something in spades and not hearts, and I have so much extras you wouldn't believe. I'm picturing +1100 or +1400, while slam is still uncertain. I'm not too happy about this, but I also think it's an unlikely auction. For what it's worth: this is responsive/'values' for me, not penalties.

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-30, 05:54, said:

or 4♠-P-P ?

This one is easier, and my reason for bidding 4♥: double. Now partner will know I have hearts and a bunch of extras, and can make an informed decision without committing to the 5-level.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2025-May-30, 06:11, said:

Pass. Partner has something in spades and not hearts, and I have so much extras you wouldn't believe. I'm picturing +1100 or +1400, while slam is still uncertain. I'm not too happy about this, but I also think it's an unlikely auction. For what it's worth: this is responsive/'values' for me, not penalties.
This one is easier, and my reason for bidding 4♥: double. Now partner will know I have hearts and a bunch of extras, and can make an informed decision without committing to the 5-level.

So what would you do if partner made your type of double (and yes it's similar for us), I was the preemptor

[DavidKok]

I still pass. Sorry for not making that clear, I intended my answer to apply to either meaning of double.
It seems I'm more pessimistic about slam than some here. In addition to the obvious aces I'm worried about slow heart losers. The preempt is less likely to have hearts than our opponent sitting over us. If partner has short hearts (for the lack of a raise and penalty-oriented double) a single ace doesn't make slam - we need more, and spade values won't help.

The fact that it's MPs makes this complicated. In teams taking the money defending is a good hedge. I think it's far from automatic to find slam opposite the right ace, so at MPs I'm not prepared to gamble on that.

[gszes]

X
w/o the 3s bid, we would bid this hand in such a way as to inform p we had 6 reasonable but hardly great hearts and then hopefully arrive at a logical spot. We are under pressure but it still seems better to save 4h (or even 5h) for hands where our proposed trump suit is close to one loser max (AQJTxx, AKJxxxx) or extraordinarily long (Axxxxxxx) plus whatever side stuff we have. There is no strong reason (ie the hearts are ok but hardly great) to assume hearts is our best trump suit.
The use of x here gives us the opportunity to play in 3 different suits or 3n plus a penalty x if p decides to leave it in. Would we be better placed if to compete over a lho 4s if we x first or bid 4h? IMHO we are much better placed because we can x again w/o fear p will run merely because they are weak. Even worse, if we x over 4s p might fear bidding a long minor and give a false preference to 5h because we surely have decent hearts to bid them at the 4 level.

While starting with x might not gain us anything since we will generally convert 4c to 4h, what might we do if p bids 4d or 4h or 5c or 5d? I would at least try for slam over 4d or 4h bid (with 4s) and over 5c or 5d it is difficult to imagine a hand where 6 of either minor would be hopeless.

[Cyberyeti]

gszes, on 2025-May-30, 06:44, said:

X
w/o the 3s bid, we would bid this hand in such a way as to inform p we had 6 reasonable but hardly great hearts and then hopefully arrive at a logical spot. We are under pressure but it still seems better to save 4h (or even 5h) for hands where our proposed trump suit is close to one loser max (AQJTxx, AKJxxxx) or extraordinarily long (Axxxxxxx) plus whatever side stuff we have. There is no strong reason (ie the hearts are ok but hardly great) to assume hearts is our best trump suit.
The use of x here gives us the opportunity to play in 3 different suits or 3n plus a penalty x if p decides to leave it in. Would we be better placed if to compete over a lho 4s if we x first or bid 4h? IMHO we are much better placed because we can x again w/o fear p will run merely because they are weak. Even worse, if we x over 4s p might fear bidding a long minor and give a false preference to 5h because we surely have decent hearts to bid them at the 4 level.

While starting with x might not gain us anything since we will generally convert 4c to 4h, what might we do if p bids 4d or 4h or 5c or 5d? I would at least try for slam over 4d or 4h bid (with 4s) and over 5c or 5d it is difficult to imagine a hand where 6 of either minor would be hopeless.

The problem with X is mainly that partner passes on some hands where game in hearts is solid and you have a trump less than partner expects between you. Also what is your default action if partner holds say Qxxx, Jxx, Jxx, xxx ?

As it is, it's a big winner on this hand 3♠-X-4♠-5♦-P- back to you

[WasWinM]

For once I’m glad it’s match points. Hopefully, everyone will face this uphill battle. My goal has been changed from best result possible to best possible result. I would like to double and invite partner’s input but may not get the chance. The most straightforward is usually best in these situations so I take the low road and underbid with 4H.

[Huibertus]

I'd expect the opponents will often not stay silent after your bid. And I will bid again. Therefor I bid 4♥ and will double 4♠. I'd hate to double and double 4♠ again missing the ♥ suit if partner doesn't bid it with a 3 card or with a 5 card ♣, I'd hate to double and bid 5♥ over 4♠ going down when partner is like 2155, 3136 or so. And I'd hate to double 3♠ and being on lead against 3♠X, that would certainly be a bad score. I don't LIKE 4♥ but I think it'll provide a reasonable score most frequently.

[Huibertus]

Tramticket, on 2025-May-30, 03:30, said:

We don't need a lot from partner for slam to be good - a few hearts and an ace would do it.

The most practical way to invite slam seems to be 5♥.

That'll work fine if partner actually does have a few ♥ and ♣ A.

But what if he has ♠T98, ♥5, ♦J42, ♣T97532 or ♠T98, ♥5, ♦J42, ♣AT7532? Now you're potentially going down in 5/6♥ with 5/6♣ cold.

I know preempts work sometimes, that's why they exist, but I'd rather bid ♥ at a lower level and introduce the extra strength/other options to play over 4♠ by X.

[Cyberyeti]

Huibertus, on 2025-May-30, 12:05, said:

I'd expect the opponents will often not stay silent after your bid. And I will bid again. Therefor I bid 4♥ and will double 4♠. I'd hate to double and double 4♠ again missing the ♥ suit if partner doesn't bid it with a 3 card or with a 5 card ♣, I'd hate to double and bid 5♥ over 4♠ going down when partner is like 2155, 3136 or so. And I'd hate to double 3♠ and being on lead against 3♠X, that would certainly be a bad score. I don't LIKE 4♥ but I think it'll provide a reasonable score most frequently.

This is a fair call, partner has the nuts - but not for a heart contract.

KJ9, A, Jxxxxx, Axx - You are making 6N/7♦N, you are not making 7♦S or 5♥ as the hand opposite the preemptor has all 6 remaining hearts.

We felt a little unfortunate conceding 1100 for a zero when nobody even bid a small slam

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-30, 14:45, said:

We felt a little unfortunate conceding 1100 for a zero when nobody even bid a small slam

This is the regrettable reality of a lot of these difficult auctions. Even if some high level contract is good, they may be too hard to find. In those situations a sacrifice can be a losing action despite being better than par. This was a serious decisive factor for me to sit for the double, as mentioned.

Put differently, at MPs, if you are going for -1100 you are losing to all games and likely to most or all other sacrifices. You're only beating the pairs in slam.

[gszes]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-30, 06:55, said:

The problem with X is mainly that partner passes on some hands where game in hearts is solid and you have a trump less than partner expects between you. Also what is your default action if partner holds say Qxxx, Jxx, Jxx, xxx ?

As it is, it's a big winner on this hand 3♠-X-4♠-5♦-P- back to you

default action is 3nt promising nothing more than a spade stop and nothing more noteworthy to say. It is a big range but caters to p needing only a spade stop to make 3n and also makes it safe for p to rebid a long suit with extras. Back to the action over 5d.

We are going to at least 6d and with a computer that is what I will bid because I do not trust them to think. It is unsafe to bid 5h (or 6c) now which needs to be reserved for REALLY strong hands with a really strong suit (forcing to slam especially in clubs duh) soooooooooo 5s forcing to slam (in dia) and looking for cue bids because p has stinko trumps and not too much stuff. P should follow with 5n to show heart A or K (this assumes P would x 4s with the spade A). 5n over 5d would be a sort of GSF BUT it asks for 2 of top 3 trumps OR the A or K with extra length (here the length requirement would be at least 6).
Our failure to use 5n (over 5d), to query about trump quality, means it is not a factor and that leaves 6c available to ask for a club cue. If p has the A or K of clubs they bid 7d else they bid 6d which unceremoniously ends the proceedings.

[Huibertus]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-30, 14:45, said:

This is a fair call, partner has the nuts - but not for a heart contract.

KJ9, A, Jxxxxx, Axx - You are making 6N/7♦N, you are not making 7♦S or 5♥ as the hand opposite the preemptor has all 6 remaining hearts.

We felt a little unfortunate conceding 1100 for a zero when nobody even bid a small slam

That makes me curious, how can you go for 1100? I can't think a a hand with a void in ♥ that loses more then 5 tricks.

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Ruff a♦ losing only 1, finesse♠ losing 1, Lose 3♣
Minors 33? Then you ruff 3♦ losing 3 ♣ and 2♠

I just don't see it.

[Cyberyeti]

Huibertus, on 2025-May-30, 19:08, said:

That makes me curious, how can you go for 1100? I can't think a a hand with a void in ♥ that loses more then 5 tricks.

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Ruff a♦ losing only 1, finesse♠ losing 1, Lose 3♣
Minors 33? Then you ruff 3♦ losing 3 ♣ and 2♠

I just don't see it.

Swap the 8/Q of spades and I was in 5

[Cyberyeti]

Nobody took the approach I would have taken.

3♠-4♥-4♠-X (values)
P-4N

Which surely gets 6♦ from partner, now whether you bid 7 or not is up to you.