[mike777]

I am probably the last person in North America who never played Puppet. Perhaps the last human on the planet.

Do you like playing it, if so why? what version do you prefer? I often do open No trump with a 5 card major.

How do you handle invitational hands or game force hands with a long minor along with playing Puppet?
What else should I know when playing it?

[DavidKok]

I think it's fine. Not great, not terrible. However it is extremely fashionable, so my claim is controversial.

Firstly, there is a Puppet over 2NT, and a Puppet over 1NT. The former is very common, though there are innovations (usually called 'Muppet', but there are a few specific versions) that theoretically give a slight edge over the standard version.

Puppet over 1NT is the one that's currently en vogue. It typically uses a 3♣ or 2NT response to ask for a 5cM with opener. There are a few different versions as well, the main ones being standard and low-information. Because of the height of the asking bid it is forcing to game. If you discuss this one, expect to hear people bring up information leakage. It helps with that, though not by much, and it rarely comes up. But it does help.

Puppet over 1NT, inviting with a long minor and not leaking information with a balanced invite without a major are incompatible. You have to choose 2. If you want Puppet and invites in the minors you can play 4-way transfers and put all balanced invites through Stayman, though in my opinion this cure is worse than the disease. I think most people playing Puppet here take a hit on the minor suit invite(s).

[mw64ahw]

I play 2♣ as a 5-card non-promissory (4-card) relay (Puppet is a misnomer), which I also use over other NT bids. The unique element of this version is that you can identify whether opener has opened 22(54) as 55xx goes through 2♣

[awm]

I am not a big fan of puppet and Elianna and I play regular stayman over both 1nt and 2nt.

Over 2nt, there are serious problems with “Smolen” type hands when you play puppet. There are fixes for some of this, but it’s hard to handle it completely without using 2nt-3nt artificial, which is super dangerous for memory reasons. I’ve also found that puppet creates a lot of opportunities for opponents to double for the lead which they wouldn’t otherwise have.

Over 1nt, you sacrifice a useful response for puppet and it only helps you in the (rare) occasion that opener actually has a 5-major. You also end up leaking a lot of information to discerning opponents.

Of course, my opinion is impacted by a style where I was never required to open 1nt with a 5-major (always a choice) and where I never open 1nt with 52(42) and the like.

[smerriman]

awm, on 2025-May-29, 11:12, said:

Over 1nt, you sacrifice a useful response for puppet and it only helps you in the (rare) occasion that opener actually has a 5-major. You also end up leaking a lot of information to discerning opponents.

This isn't true. As well as when looking for a 5 card major, you use Puppet when you have a 4 card major and choice of games hand.

So after a typical auction of 1N - 3♣ - 3♦ - 3M - 3N, you have leaked *less* information about opener's majors than if you went through Stayman. You do leak information if they have a 5 card major, but this is much rarer.

[awm]

smerriman, on 2025-May-29, 13:46, said:

This isn't true. As well as when looking for a 5 card major, you use Puppet when you have a 4 card major and choice of games hand.

So after a typical auction of 1N - 3♣ - 3♦ - 3M - 3N, you have leaked *less* information about opener's majors than if you went through Stayman. You do leak information if they have a 5 card major, but this is much rarer.

People think this but I disagree. You have given opponents more opportunities to double for the lead (3M, not to mention doubling 3c is safer than doubling 2c). You’ve also told opponents quite a lot about dummy’s shape before the lead (basically has to be 4-3 majors on this auction and you know which way).

[mikeh]

I’ve played puppet over 2N and disliked it intensely. I’ve played a modified puppet over 2N and like it a lot….sure, memory demand can be a problem but once you’ve screwed it up and got a horrible result then, in my very considerable experience with such screwups, one tends to remember it quite well. I’ve long warned partners that I’m likely to screw up a new treatment once but rarely twice.

I really don’t like it, as an idea, over 1 N. I’ve not played it so maybe I’m being unfair, but it would require a serious change in my main partnership, where we have many specialized agreements, which we’d have to drop or at least significantly modify. Over our weak notrump, we can find opener’s five card major if responder has game values…otherwise we can’t.

It’s like anything…one needs to weigh whether the, imo, marginal gains from puppet outweigh the loss you may suffer from not having whatever you use 3C for, if not puppet.

Btw, ordinary puppet over 2N appears to be incompatible with smolen. Modified puppet allows for smolen in addition to looking for a. 5=3 major fit.

[thepossum]

I find Smolen fairly simple to remember

[mycroft]

How often do you bid 1NT with 5M332? Would you ever bid 1NT with (52)(42)?

Repeat for 2NT (the answers can be very different)?

Given the answers to those questions, how concerned are you about missing a 5-3 major fit? What hands would prefer to play a 5-3 major fit, if there is one, to just blasting 3NT and hoping two flat hands score the same tricks? (are you playing MPs or IMPs, where the cost of "9 vs 10" or "10 vs 11" is very different?)

I know "don't worry about the field, get to the right contract", but especially at matchpoints, when you get to 3NT with a 5-3 major fit, how much of the room is opening 1M, finding the 8-card fit, and bidding game never thinking about 3NT or balanced hands? How much of the room is joining you in bidding 1NT, but finding the 5-3 fit?

Now that you have all that information, is it worth the information leakage/extra bid in the system/extra opportunities for lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting doubles to find the 5-3 fits?

And once you've decided on a strategy, is it worth putting more 5M hands into 1NT to not have to deal with them in the 1M openers? Does your system have a lower or higher cost to doing so, and is it higher than the "1♥-1♠; 1NT is 12-17 balanced" (or whatever rebid you overload with 15-17 5M332s) you're doing now?

Interestingly, in one regular partnership I am playing (because the book suggests, and in many cases, the system is designed assuming) all 5M332s (and some (52)(42)s) are (re)bid 1NT. In my other regular partnership, partner will never (and I will "never") open 1NT with 5-card M, even though we have several "get-outs" in our system to handle it (and one of the really ugly-for-information-leakage sequences would be much less information-leakage-y if we used it significantly more often "just looking for a 5-card major"). We will bid 2NT with 5M332, but don't play puppet (more for hysterical raisins than anything else; we both play it with other partners and it wouldn't really affect our memory load).

[mike777]

mycroft, on 2025-May-30, 10:25, said:

How often do you bid 1NT with 5M332? Would you ever bid 1NT with (52)(42)?

Repeat for 2NT (the answers can be very different)?

Given the answers to those questions, how concerned are you about missing a 5-3 major fit? What hands would prefer to play a 5-3 major fit, if there is one, to just blasting 3NT and hoping two flat hands score the same tricks? (are you playing MPs or IMPs, where the cost of "9 vs 10" or "10 vs 11" is very different?)

I know "don't worry about the field, get to the right contract", but especially at matchpoints, when you get to 3NT with a 5-3 major fit, how much of the room is opening 1M, finding the 8-card fit, and bidding game never thinking about 3NT or balanced hands? How much of the room is joining you in bidding 1NT, but finding the 5-3 fit?

Now that you have all that information, is it worth the information leakage/extra bid in the system/extra opportunities for lead-directing or sacrifice-suggesting doubles to find the 5-3 fits?

And once you've decided on a strategy, is it worth putting more 5M hands into 1NT to not have to deal with them in the 1M openers? Does your system have a lower or higher cost to doing so, and is it higher than the "1♥-1♠; 1NT is 12-17 balanced" (or whatever rebid you overload with 15-17 5M332s) you're doing now?

Interestingly, in one regular partnership I am playing (because the book suggests, and in many cases, the system is designed assuming) all 5M332s (and some (52)(42)s) are (re)bid 1NT. In my other regular partnership, partner will never (and I will "never") open 1NT with 5-card M, even though we have several "get-outs" in our system to handle it (and one of the really ugly-for-information-leakage sequences would be much less information-leakage-y if we used it significantly more often "just looking for a 5-card major"). We will bid 2NT with 5M332, but don't play puppet (more for hysterical raisins than anything else; we both play it with other partners and it wouldn't really affect our memory load).

I have never played Puppet in my life. I am almost 71. Never cared to. Hopefully that should answer all your questions. Why play it now? Everyone here in town and probably in North America seem to love it and insists on playing it. If I want to play f2f I guess I better learn it and go along...
I am perfectly happy playing my stuff over NT openings..perfectly happy opening off shape NT openings often for a reason, but...that does not seem to be an option right now. Does playing stayman not promising a major have information leakage, sure, not my biggest worry. Counting is and continues to be my biggest concern....

So step one is just to learn the darn thing...
thanks..

smile.

[mw64ahw]

If you're paranoid about a bit of leakage try a LIPS version.

[paulg]

We play that the 2NT response to 1NT is (jlall) Puppet Stayman and is game forcing. It is used when the responder is interested in a 5-card major or when has a single four-card major and choice-of-game hand. It is not used with 4-4 majors (use Stayman). It is also used with (31)(54) hands.

We also play 2♠ as a range-ask or clubs.

We have given up on invitational one-suited minor hands and have not really noticed the difference.

We don't play Puppet over 2NT, just normal Stayman.

We rarely play matchpoints, almost all our bridge is teams.

[mike777]

paulg, on 2025-May-30, 12:30, said:

We play that the 2NT response to 1NT is (jlall) Puppet Stayman and is game forcing. It is used when the responder is interested in a 5-card major or when has a single four-card major and choice-of-game hand. It is not used with 4-4 majors (use Stayman). It is also used with (31)(54) hands.

We also play 2♠ as a range-ask or clubs.

We have given up on invitational one-suited minor hands and have not really noticed the difference.

We don't play Puppet over 2NT, just normal Stayman.

We rarely play matchpoints, almost all our bridge is teams.

Ty.
If you have time could you please provide details how it works. In dual conjunction.
Range and puppet.
Examples.

Assume no experience with either, please

[paulg]

 mike777, on 2025-May-30, 13:23, said:

Ty.
If you have time could you please provide details how it works. In dual conjunction.
Range and puppet.
Examples.

Assume no experience with either, please

The 2♠ range ask and 2NT Puppet can be played independently, it is just our choice to play them both. We keep both conventions very simple and have played them since April 2012 so are pretty happy with them. We also play that 1NT-3♣ shows diamonds, either sign-off or game forcing/slam try with major suit shortage.

1NT - 2NT
3♣ = no 5-card major
3M = 5M

1NT - 2NT
3♣ - 3♦ = (31)(54), now 3♥ is a relay for shortage if opener wants to know
   - 3M = 4OM
   - 3NT = no interest in four-card major

1NT - 2♠
2NT = min
3♣ = max


1NT - 2♠
2NT/3♣ - Pass/3♣ = to play
   - 3♦/♥/♠ = 6+♣, FG, shortage
   - 3NT = mild slam try in clubs
   - 4X = other slam tries

[Flem72]

I much prefer 2C as 5cdMajor Stayman ala Woolsey and Pavlicek. Otherwise, I'm with paulg: If you want to play 2N or 3C Puppet, use the 5card major version: 3D means no 5cd; less leakage. Just means responder must use 2C for 44 major hands. Simple.