[jillybean]

bluenikki, on 2024-October-26, 13:53, said:

Most hearing aids now have bluetooth.

If we consider seniors unable to turn off their cell phones, and they repeatedly leave their CC at the table, there should be minimal risk of allowing Bluetooth connectivity on their medical devices.

But seriously, how much cheating has been attributed to technology in live games?
Foot tapping, finger positioning, cough, and card, pen , tray placement appear to be more popular methods.

[pescetom]

bluenikki, on 2024-October-26, 13:53, said:

Most hearing aids now have bluetooth.

And for $25 you can buy audio enabled glasses too, even without spending more to have a heads up display from the open room.
Not to mention vibrating shoes, underwear or whatever.
The potential for wireless cheating is endless, either we:
- try to screen/detect all signals
- provide neutral clothing and aids to disability, hoping nobody implanted anything
- just address the most obvious threats and try to spot the rest (the current approach).

[hrothgar]

pescetom, on 2024-October-26, 15:00, said:

And for $25 you can buy audio enabled glasses too, even without spending more to have a heads up display from the open room.
Not to mention vibrating shoes, underwear or whatever.
The potential for wireless cheating is endless, either we:
- try to screen/detect all signals
- provide neutral clothing and aids to disability, hoping nobody implanted anything
- just address the most obvious threats and try to spot the rest (the current approach).

Or

1. Have people play on tablets
2. Eliminate live vugrapgh
3. Put players on the same team in different rooms

[blackshoe]

We should put all the North players in Oslo, all the East players in Shanghai, all the South players in Buenos Aires, and all the West players in Los Angeles. That'll fix it.

[Gerardo]

Silvia Shi asked USBF for a waiver so she could play this cycle.

It was granted.

USBF Board Minutes 2023-09-12

[jillybean]

I'd like to understand more.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-October-28, 16:36, said:

I'd like to understand more.

Hmm.
I already formulated my judgement on TR, never heard of the rest but kudos to SW.

[mikeh]

Played with tablets today. Short learning curve. But we were all in a large room with the tables close enough that a careful listener could conceivably here something. Personally I didn’t hear anyth8ng specific other than at the next table a player called (loudly…I assume he’d called more quietly and his partner had hesitated) for ‘the 9 of hearts’, which didn’t tell me anything useful, lol.

I think that the USBF trials, at some point in the event, had each member of a pair isolated in a hotel room with a member of the opposing pair, each on a tablet. I don’t think that’s feasible We had 4 events, each with 16 teams competing.

We wear player id on lanyards, the id has a barcode. We’re scanned if we leave the room while the event is underway and accompanied by a staff member until we return, when we’re scanned again. Only one member of a team may leave at any time. However, I wasn’t followed into the restroom.

But I find the notion that I might have a hidden communication device that I can access in the restroom and gain info from some vugraph watching accomplice laughable. How long do you think I have?

How would I tell my accomplice which board I’m interested in and what info I want? How much money is my team prepared to invest in this spyware? Heck, my partner is a computer guy who owns computer businesses and he struggled to turn off his Apple Watch! We’re seniors!

As for convicted cheats playing…I can forgive some who cheated via self kibitzing during Covid but not anyone who ‘confessed’ only after being caught Come back and play acbl events? Ok, after a real suspension. Come back and play for one’s country…not in a million years. And play professionally? It makes me sick. Not so much at the pro but more at the client and far more at the other pros who take the money. A lot of pros talked the talk back a few years ago….maybe some walk the walk but I’ve not heard of any.

Fortunately, afaik, that’s not a factor in the Seniors. No convicted cheats to my knowledge. Not sure how many pros, because there’s only one US team….I was told, but don’t know for sure, that Poland was a pro team.

[pilowsky]

 mikeh, on 2024-October-28, 22:05, said:

But I find the notion that I might have a hidden communication device that I can access in the restroom and gain info from some vugraph watching accomplice laughable. How long do you think I have?

Be grateful they don't scan you for beads.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2024-October-28, 22:05, said:

As for convicted cheats playing…I can forgive some who cheated via self kibitzing during Covid but not anyone who ‘confessed’ only after being caught Come back and play acbl events? Ok, after a real suspension. Come back and play for one’s country…not in a million years. And play professionally? It makes me sick. Not so much at the pro but more at the client and far more at the other pros who take the money. A lot of pros talked the talk back a few years ago….maybe some walk the walk but I’ve not heard of any.

Money and Ego. Master Points equate to Ego?, I can't believe that.

I don't understand your comment 'far more at the other pros who take the money'. Take whose money? Shi is the "professional" here?

lightbulb - I was thinking Pro - Client. You, I assume, are referring to other pros on same team.

[fred]

 Gerardo, on 2024-October-28, 16:20, said:

Silvia Shi asked USBF for a waiver so she could play this cycle.

It was granted.

USBF Board Minutes 2023-09-12

Very proud that my wife, Sheri Winestock, dissented.

She subsequently quit the USBF Board and shortly thereafter the USBF itself (like me, she hopes to play internationally for Canada in the future - we are both dual citizens).

[akwoo]

 mikeh, on 2024-October-28, 22:05, said:

But I find the notion that I might have a hidden communication device that I can access in the restroom and gain info from some vugraph watching accomplice laughable. How long do you think I have?

Unfortunately this isn't that laughable.

You arrange to go to the bathroom hourly, on the hour.

At your first break, your device vibrates in the pattern ** * * ** ***, and now you know that, on board 9, you should finesse LHO for the queen. (9 is 1001 in binary, and you've agreed beforehand that 3 buzzes means North has the queen)

At your second break, your device vibrates in the pattern ** ** ** ** *****, and now you know that, on board 15, both finesses are good. You go back, see your hand, have an auction, and now you know you should accept partner's game try.

Actually, you could probably manage to keep this device in your shoe and no one would ever know. Then you're not restricted to boards around your bathroom breaks.

Granted, this only helps you in all your two-way finesses and some of your invite decisions. It's not a big deal if you're getting blown out, but could be important in a tight match.

[mycroft]

I could be wrong - and it would be easy to detect eventually these days, if everything is being recorded for EDGAR - but I said more than a decade ago that one bit of information on every hand, provided by an A-level player who could see and analyze the hand, could turn an A+level player playing into a WC contender.

That 1 bit? "Do something different". I can't imagine someone at the top (but not really top) level not being able to work out what "different" would mean on a hand, looking at it.

Frankly, to avoid allegations of "extra information" - because the "feel police" would be around in force very shortly, just as they were for F-N and M-M and the Doctors and... - you'd want to only use that information occasionally. It would raise suspicions quickly if an absolute top player guessed to do something "not down the middle" a lot, and only when it worked.

In theory I like the idea of delayed vugraph - especially as the stater of the above supposition. But until we get automatic entry of bids and plays (and Alerts - reporting of Alerted calls was unusually poor in the RR from what I'm used to), the chance of WC-level cheating via live vugraph as a watcher is well below the known immediate corrections of "I think it's pass-4♥", or "surely they played the Q to win the trick" or ... from the commentators and the audience.

[pilowsky]

 akwoo, on 2024-October-29, 10:13, said:

Unfortunately this isn't that laughable.

You arrange to go to the bathroom hourly, on the hour.

At your first break, your device vibrates in the pattern ** * * ** ***, and now you know that, on board 9, you should finesse LHO for the queen. (9 is 1001 in binary, and you've agreed beforehand that 3 buzzes means North has the queen)

At your second break, your device vibrates in the pattern ** ** ** ** *****, and now you know that, on board 15, both finesses are good. You go back, see your hand, have an auction, and now you know you should accept partner's game try.

Actually, you could probably manage to keep this device in your shoe and no one would ever know. Then you're not restricted to boards around your bathroom breaks.

Granted, this only helps you in all your two-way finesses and some of your invite decisions. It's not a big deal if you're getting blown out, but could be important in a tight match.

Although this sounds farfetched, a pair of youtubers used exactly this method (watch for yourselves) to demonstrate that vibrating anal beads could be used by a novice to defeat a grandmaster at chess.

[mikeh]

 akwoo, on 2024-October-29, 10:13, said:

Unfortunately this isn't that laughable.

You arrange to go to the bathroom hourly, on the hour.

At your first break, your device vibrates in the pattern ** * * ** ***, and now you know that, on board 9, you should finesse LHO for the queen. (9 is 1001 in binary, and you've agreed beforehand that 3 buzzes means North has the queen)

At your second break, your device vibrates in the pattern ** ** ** ** *****, and now you know that, on board 15, both finesses are good. You go back, see your hand, have an auction, and now you know you should accept partner's game try.

Actually, you could probably manage to keep this device in your shoe and no one would ever know. Then you're not restricted to boards around your bathroom breaks.

Granted, this only helps you in all your two-way finesses and some of your invite decisions. It's not a big deal if you're getting blown out, but could be important in a tight match.

If you start going to the bathroom while on defence or declarer, it’s going to look exceedingly odd. Do it once and argue you have a sudden issue…maybe. Don’t twice…good luck. It’s normal to wait until one is dummy. Watching the clock and consistently leaving will be….odd….and remember that everything, including player behaviour such as constantly looking at the time, is on video.

Plus, how on earth do you or your accomplice know when you’re on board 9….or that board nine has some kind of guess….what? 4-1 trump? Club queen on one’s right? That you’re the declarer, not partner? Who is ever going to remember the binary for the 100+ points that, not knowing the hand records, may be important.

Ok, you estimate you’ll get to board nine around a certain time. The opps play slowly….the news is stale by the time you get it.

And soon…and on…and on.

Can you imagine the length of time it would take to internalize all that?


And most two way finesses aren’t two way to an expert….lots are but one often has inferences if one knows how to play. And if a good player consistently makes an inferior play only when it works…look out!

Simply put…while history tells us that people cheat….they generally did it in an easily detectable fashion once the community realized that (a) it was happening and (b) some basic measures were implemented. I think the fears are grossly exaggerated.

Finally, the cognitive demands of high level bridge are astronomical. Few players play their theoretical best consistently. Add to the cognitive demand of remembering complex methods and of maintaining focus during bidding and play by (a) cheating and remembering the cheating method and (b) figuring out when it’s safe to use the illegal information without broadcasting that one is cheating…..who the heck can do that? Remember, consistently doing strange things when they work and not otherwise is instantly recognizable to expert opps and they talk!

[Zelandakh]

 hrothgar, on 2024-October-26, 15:23, said:

2. Eliminate live vugrapgh

2. Put live vugraph on a 30min delay.

[Zelandakh]

 mikeh, on 2024-October-28, 22:05, said:

But I find the notion that I might have a hidden communication device that I can access in the restroom and gain info from some vugraph watching accomplice laughable. How long do you think I have?

How about in the playing area though, assuming there is limited (or no) active screening? Given there is live vugraph, it takes 6 dot-dash signals to identify the next card - 2 for the suit and 4 for the rank - with plenty of redundancy to indicate that there is an issue such as vugraph losing the play or that the best play is anti-% and to consider whether to use it or not. 6 Morse characters can easily be transmitted in under a second. You can laugh it off if you like but electronic cheating is a big deal in the chess world and it is quite important that bridge authorities get their rules right now before it becomes an equally serious issue here. And yes, cheating on a mobile phone in the restroom has happened in chess, as have several other inventive schemes. It is not laughable.

[blackshoe]

Some day, according to science fiction, we'll all have computers in our heads. How would bridge, assuming it's still around, prevent cheating then?

[jillybean]

Perhaps there will be an in head computer program to zap the cheaters.

Obviously nothing, other than personal integrity can prevent cheaters.

Edgar has caught a high profile cheater. She was a given a pardon to allow her to represent her country. Other high profile players implicitly condoned the cheating and played on her team. Edgar has caught some of the "soft cheaters" at the club who have taken their cheating online, perhaps unaware that the laws would be enforced online. We may be able to clean up the online game for a little while, with continuous monitoring. Soft Cheaters will continue their magic at the club.

Live with it, join them, or hope one day there will be a tipping point of players who are fed up with the cheating.

[mike777]

Computers in our head
Is an entirely new universe.
Bridge does not exist...it will be destroyed along with most existing games.
Using the entire knowledge of the world will be as natural and ethical as breathing air.