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Style? Is this a 5 or 6 card suit?

#21 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2024-May-19, 12:40

This is straying dangerously close to the topic I've been attempting to avoid this year (systems over 1NT), so I'll probably bow out after this comment. I like putting 5M332 in the NT ladder because that hand type has no rebid otherwise (no 6(+)-card suit or 4(+)-card side suit to rebid). In particular, combining putting this hand type in 1NT with a strong NT enabled playing a semiforcing NT and a 2/1 GF structure, which I really like. 4441's are always problematic, and I don't have strong thoughts on them. Those hands will likely be a mess no matter your system.
Other hand types don't have as much of a problem though. In natural, strong club, strong diamond and even more exotic systems the 4M5m hands and 6(+)m hands have a neat ladder all of their own, so at the very least I would really like to have the flexibility to choose whether the hand is suitable (and for me frequently it'll not be).

I think there are a few main reasons for folding 6m322's into NT, some less legitimate than others:
  • By concealing your shape you make it harder for the defenders, especially if they count out the hand wrong in 3NT. This can let you slip through unmakeable game contracts.
  • If your 1m openings say little to nothing about the minor suit there's a reasonable chance that you won't get to show your shape anyway. In that case opening 1NT might be the lesser evil.
  • If you are a much stronger player than your partner, you may well wish to play the hand. Especially if your partner is of the calibre that they won't notice your shape during the play.
  • In some parts of the world the disclosure requirements on 1NT and 2NT are extremely lax, and you can get a tactical advantage by opening it as often as possible.
I'm not a fan of 3 or 4 ever, and when it comes to point 2 personally I am a big proponent of improving the systems over 1m, rather than over 1NT, to address this issue. Or, putting it more rudely, if all you know is NT conventions every hand starts to look balanced. Point 1 is more interesting: what is the exact long term gain or loss from concealing a long minor suit? I think it's detrimental on balance, so I'd like to have a systemic way to show this hand that does not involve opening 1NT. And once I have both options I can exercise judgement on individual hands, though as mentioned before I lean heavily towards not opening 1NT with semibalanced or unbalanced hands.
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#22 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2024-May-19, 13:16

I think there are a few reasons that you're missing; in particular:

* You may reach a better partial in 1NT or 2M as opposed to 3m, especially if the minor suit quality is poor and partner doesn't have a great fit.
* You protect holdings in opener's hand from the lead (take a hand like AQ KJx QTxxxx Kx; do you really want 3NT or 4M played from partner's side?)
* Regardless of counting the hand, auctions like 1NT-3NT or 1NT-2-2-3NT are harder to lead against than auctions where suit lengths are known.

The practice of opening or rebidding notrump on at least some semi-balanced hands with a long minor seems quite popular among world-class partnerships. You're of course free to disagree, but expert consensus is leaning against you.
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#23 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2024-May-19, 14:01

I think I covered all three?
  • Getting to better partials is both part of the judgement I mentioned and the system over 1m I mentioned. By opening lower you have more bidding space, it is rare that you cannot get to a contract that you could get to over 1NT, especially if you allow some flexibility with extreme positional hands.
  • I mentioned the desire for flexibility at the top and and the bottom of my comment, this hand is such an extreme example.
  • I specifically said 'especially if they count out the hand wrong', rather than 'but only if'. To me the key difference that makes finding a lead to 1NT-3NT harder is that it has concealed declarer's shape more, which is exactly my first point. Do you think this is because of a different reason?

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#24 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2024-May-19, 14:09

This is why I like Precision. B-)

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#25 User is online   thepossum 

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Posted 2024-May-19, 14:56

View PostDavidKok, on 2024-May-19, 06:19, said:


Emphasising the 'strength of the hand' is too simplistic.


That's also a misrepresentation of what I meant

If you bid 2NT with a hand like that you risk missing something so its underestimating it's potential

Is that a better word

Maybe also missing its strengths but many people appear happy with monotonous NT games

Sorry. Old rubber Player. Can't stand pairs

NT, minor, major. Meh

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#26 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2024-May-19, 14:57

View PostDavidKok, on 2024-May-19, 14:01, said:

I think I covered all three?
  • Getting to better partials is both part of the judgement I mentioned and the system over 1m I mentioned. By opening lower you have more bidding space, it is rare that you cannot get to a contract that you could get to over 1NT, especially if you allow some flexibility with extreme positional hands.
  • I mentioned the desire for flexibility at the top and and the bottom of my comment, this hand is such an extreme example.
  • I specifically said 'especially if they count out the hand wrong', rather than 'but only if'. To me the key difference that makes finding a lead to 1NT-3NT harder is that it has concealed declarer's shape more, which is exactly my first point. Do you think this is because of a different reason?



I don't think the better partials are a judgement issue (there is not very much judgement involved in partscore bidding really, you don't have a lot of calls) and I don't think this is a problem of system. A 1m opening is lower than 1NT, but it includes a LOT more hand types. You don't have enough sequences to 1NT, 2m, and 2M to stop in these contracts accurately on all desirable hands regardless of your choice of methods. Standard methods (I think sensibly) do not prioritise hands with extras and a six-card suit of poor quality and you'll do better opening 1NT on some such hands. It's possible to change methods to handle these better, but you will see significant losses elsewhere (probably not a good tradeoff overall).

As to the 1NT auctions, in addition to concealing opener's hand you'll also frequently conceal responder's hand, because responder doesn't have to explore alternative contracts as frequently with the knowledge that opener is more limited in strength and shape.
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#27 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2024-May-19, 15:54

View PostCyberyeti, on 2024-May-19, 06:06, said:

The problem with this is KQxxx, Kxx, x(x), xx(x) is cold for a slam, and partner won't envisage this

Or partner has something like



And raises to 3NT, and the opponents run clubs until you are down 1 or 2.
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#28 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2024-May-20, 09:24

This has evolved into another good discussion and the above posters have brought forward ideas that I would like to consider.
I have progressed from "1nt must be balanced, you can't open 1nt with 2 doubletons"
to
Opening 1nt with 5 hearts, but not 5 spades as "spades is the boss suit and we need to be able to compete for partscore if we have a spade fit
to
Opening any 5M332 hand 1nt.

I would open some 6m hands 1nt, 6M wouldn't cross my mind but perhaps a 6M without honors it should be rolled into the nt.

pescetom says the majority are moving away from putting 5M332 through 1nt. Is this true in North America, or what is happening in the rest of the Birdge World?

Edit; Oops, I omitted the NOT. "There are people reading here who still prefer not to put 5M332 through 1NT, but they are no longer a majority"
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#29 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-May-20, 10:06

View Postjillybean, on 2024-May-20, 09:24, said:

pescetom says the majority are moving away from putting 5M332 through 1nt. Is this true in North America, or what is happening in the rest of the Birdge World?


I did not say that at all :)

View Postpescetom, on 2024-May-19, 11:25, said:

There are people reading here who still prefer not to put 5M332 through 1NT, but they are no longer a majority


In other words, it is now close to being considered as normal, as I understand (except in some places like Italy, but even here things are changing fast and beginners are taught to do it).
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#30 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2024-May-20, 12:24

Another factor in favour of NT opening that risks being swept under the carpet here is the risk of interference, which is significantly lower than over 1X making an uncontested auction more likely.
In the case of the hand I posted as a provocation, after 2NT (pass) we might still find some of the lucky fit slams postulated by cyberyeti... after 1 (2) X (4) good luck.
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#31 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2024-May-20, 15:24

Late to the thread but have read the posts with interest

Fwiw, here’s my two cents worth:

On the specific hand, I think it an error to open 2N with a 6 card major. Not only do you usually miss a 6=3 fit (even puppeteers don’t usually puppet unless they have a potential ruffing value should a 5=3 fit exist and non-puppeteers are doomed, but you also miss a good 6=2 fit on occasion, without partner ever knowing of that fit (even with puppet) and having no ability to evaluate accordingly. In addition, the hand is too strong for 2N, and the alternative of 2C then 2N suffers from the earlier problems plus may fatally mislead partner as to the likelihood, if he is two suited, without hearts as one of the suits, of a good fit somewhere. Plus if the opps interfere, bidding notrump may lead to a silly result while opening 2C then bidding hearts shows a better playing hand than this, for hearts.

Thus the process of elimination suggests we don’t like 2N or 2C, which leaves 1H. Now, we need to consider the downsides of 1H, and determine whether they are so bad that we need to revisit 2N or 2C.

Downsides? If partner fits hearts, we’ll usually be ok. We go to game over a single raise, with no fear of missing a good slam. We cuebid over a limit raise sequence, expressing slam interest and what we do next depends on what partner does but, assuming an expert partner, he will be aware that we may be just shy of a 2C opening bid so I would not expect to miss many decent slams. As an aside, I do jpknow that most players are neither experts nor do they play with expert partners. However, the reality is that difficult hands for experts are often simply guessing hands for non-experts and one way to become expert is to read about how experts think and bid. Not that experts are often unanimous, lol.

If partner passes, we won’t have missed a game unless partner is one of those who thinks one needs 6+ hcp to respond (that thinking is extremely old fashioned and anyone using it these days will get eaten alive in good competition).

If the opps interfere we can double, cuebid, bid more hearts, etc,,,lots of ways to show a good hand. While I said earlier that this hand is too strong for 2N, that’s based on the assumption that partner has his share of the missing hcp, or close to it. If the opps tell us that partner is bust and if he tells us (by passing) that he lacks a good heart fit, this hand is no longer that good.

If partner responds 1N, whether forcing, semi forcing or not forcing, we have an easy and descriptive 3N…which is only a slight underbid.

Raising 1N to 2N shows a hand just short of a 2N opening bid. Thus we do NOT need 3N to show that hand (although I’ve seen many, many non experts jump to 3N with 18, presumably because they don’t know any better or don’t trust partner). That means that we can use 3N to show about 19 hcp with a card major!

What do we hold? We hold a 20 count with a 6 card major….’about’ mp lies 18-20 so we have a maximum for the bid, but it’s silly to argue that we can’t make a descriptive bid because we’re maximum for the bid. Besides, I know that I’m almost always happy when partner tables a maximum as dummy!


A 2/1 response,me specially if that’s gf, is unlikely to cause a problem. We are almost always driving to slam and we have lots of bidding space in which to show slam interest and get info from partner.

It’s really only a 1S response that is likely to be a big problem. 1H 1S 3N carries a quite different message than does 1H 1N 3N. I think it normal for the 1H 1S 3N sequence to promise solid hearts and some cards in the unbid suits rather than 19-20 hcp.

xx AKQJxxx Ax Kx wouldn’t be a surprise hand for that auction.

So I think we’re forced to jumpshift into 3C, which should always be suspect in any partnership, which in turn means we’re likely to survive.

I think this shows that 1H, while imperfect, is probably going to lead us to reasonable collaborative auctions and that it’s downsides aren’t anywhere nearly as bad as the alternatives (other than the fact that these sorts of hands get the strong club players feeling very smug about their methods).


More generally…I will almost never open 1N with a 6 card minor, but I play mostly imps and don’t bother changing much, systemically, when I play mps (1 do change my exercise of judgement). At imps I’d rather be in a cold 5C/D contract than 3N which fails on a plausible lie of the cards, even if 3N will make most of the time. I’ll happily give you 1 or 2 imps for your overtrick(s) when 3N makes provided I get my 10 or 12 imps when 3N fails. Opening 1N greatly reduces the chances of even finding a fit in that minor.

Also, these days in strong fields, it’s naive to think that 1N eliminates interference. Take a look at what experts are bidding on at favourable or even equal. All good players know that other good pairs will bid with great accuracy after 1N if given free rein (ok, an exception being if 1N could have a 6 card suit, lol, but even if one likes to do this m the fact is that 4432/4333/5332/4441 hands are collectively far more likely). So experts partnerships compete over 1N aggressively if protected by shape and distribution.

Competing over 2N is far different, but 2N has such severe problems that any edge that gives us is, imo, negligible since the opps don’t need to compete in order to disrupt our auction…we’ve done that already, lol.

I should add one last thought. Show me a player who opens 2N here, and doesn’t consider it as deliberately making a misleading call and I suspect we’re looking at a player who likes to be in charge on every hand if possible. Such an approach sometimes leads to spectacular successes but overall it is destructive of partnerships and leads to too many random results.
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