[thepossum]

How do you evaluate this
North's second double is theoretically penalty but often goes either way and the play is not always obvious
The first takeout can be on as little as 6 points but the second one promises more like 10-12+ hopefully

Pass or 5 hearts

MPs, red vs red etc. I was happy passing 4 spades

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[the hog]

Normally I ignore you, but when you post incorrect information that may mislead others - North's second X is not " theoretically penalty". You cannot have a t/o X and it then miraculously becomes a theoretical penalty . The x is still takeout, though that does not mean it cannot be passed with no obvious bid to make. Here you have a 5H bid.

[Gilithin]

thepossum, on 2023-April-28, 17:12, said:

How do you evaluate this

I evaluate it as wrong. Most of the world play the first double as negative, showing hearts, these days, although takeout can be played. But the second double is certainly not penalty and will typical just be value-showing. Opener should take an appropriate action in this context.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

assuming this is the GIB system, you know North does not have a 2H response over 1S,
i.e. you have a 44 fit in hearts, and thats it.
4S will go down, and quite likely you will expect to collect 500.

You expect them to have a 10 card fit.
The Law of Total Tricks: You have 18 total tricks, if you make 11, they will be -3 (800),
but the law is not very reliable if it comes to high level contracts.
Nowadays I tend to try to go plus, so I would pass, but given this is MP, you have to get it right,
and if it would bother you more, that everyone got 6200 / 650, and you only 500, go for it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-April-28, 21:41, said:

Normally I ignore you, but when you post incorrect information that may mislead others - North's second X is not " theoretically penalty". You cannot have a t/o X and it then miraculously becomes a theoretical penalty . The x is still takeout, though that does not mean it cannot be passed with no obvious bid to make. Here you have a 5H bid.

What do you expect partner to do with a 3343 hand and all the missing non spade high cards ? he bids like this.

Yes this is a takeout double that becomes a penalty double.

Whether I bid 4N or 5♥ (or pass) next depends on my agreements about the double and 4N.

[helene_t]

North's second double just shows that they are strong enough not to want to defend undoubled, and not distributional enough to bid over 4♠ on their own. If you play a strong NT system, this basically means "pass if you have a 12-14 balanced hand, otherwise do something intelligent". This doesn't make it a penalty double but it may well be good to pass with this South hand.

I would pass but I am not particularly convinced. You could also bid 4NT to offer partner a choice. While this ostensibly means 4-5 in the minors, it may well be the best strategy to bid 4NT and then pass 5♣ but correct 5♦ to 5♥. This requires discussion with partner as partner may take the slow route to 5♥ as showing slam interest. Then again, you have two aces plus a singleton in their suit so the hand is not that bad for slam.

[Gilithin]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-29, 11:37, said:

What do you expect partner to do with a 3343 hand and all the missing non spade high cards ? he bids like this.

So ♠xxx ♥KQx ♦AQJx ♣KQx. What's wrong with 2♦? Or since pure takeout doubles are often combined with a general cue rather than a UCB, 2♠ might also be an option.

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-29, 11:37, said:

Yes this is a takeout double that becomes a penalty double.

This sort of description is at best rubbish and at worst ethically challenged. A description such as "convertible values" is just fine, but "pure penalty"? Really?

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-29, 11:37, said:

Whether I bid 4N or 5♥ (or pass) next depends on my agreements about the double and 4N.

I suggest you provide us with a set of agreements that work perfectly for this hand but fail on most others and bid accordingly.

[Cyberyeti]

Gilithin, on 2023-April-29, 12:17, said:

So ♠xxx ♥KQx ♦AQJx ♣KQx. What's wrong with 2♦? Or since pure takeout doubles are often combined with a general cue rather than a UCB, 2♠ might also be an option.

2♦ does not suggest 3 hearts and 4 diamonds to me. 2♠ would be 3 clubs with the likelihood you could ruff with one or more of them for us. We would auto double on this hand, but our double is NOT just hearts and forget what else.

Quote

This sort of description is at best rubbish and at worst ethically challenged. A description such as "convertible values" is just fine, but "pure penalty"? Really?

Sorry, I meant on this hand it was a penalty double, but partner should expect a hand that is happy to defend if he chooses to pass

Quote

I suggest you provide us with a set of agreements that work perfectly for this hand but fail on most others and bid accordingly.

Not sure what you mean by this, but what I do depends on:

Which suit you open with a 1444
Whether the first double absolutely nails on 4 hearts and is never made without them
The nature of the second double, and what 4N would be instead
Whether 4N over the second X is specifically 5 clubs and 4 diamonds or can be 5♣/4♥

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-29, 11:37, said:

What do you expect partner to do with a 3343 hand and all the missing non spade high cards ? he bids like this.

Yes this is a takeout double that becomes a penalty double.

Whether I bid 4N or 5♥ (or pass) next depends on my agreements about the double and 4N.

I would interpret the second double as optional, value showing, it's our hand, we cannot let them play in anything undoubled.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2023-April-29, 14:53, said:

I would interpret the second double as optional, value showing, it's our hand, we cannot let them play in anything undoubled.

Yup, this is fair, but "I won't be upset if you pass". The question is whether you expect partner to pass with nothing special or bid.

[the hog]

"What do you expect partner to do with a 3343 hand and all the missing non spade high cards ? he bids like this."
Ever heard of a 2S bid?

[thepossum]

I made the wrong call anyway and the defence in this case was fairly straightforward. I am a friendly polite person who asked a polite and friendly question as always

First bid was takeout or negative whatever - double up to game level are takeout - after that whatever. Below game they mean bid something usually a suit not yet bid
Second was how you choose to take it. I took it to have chances either way which there were. 1 trick. It actually scored positive either way too

Good luck to one of the regular bullies trying to tell me the system I have played for years - but I was asking for some friendly chat not a fight. But you tell me what that bid means - it could be either like I said. Thanks to those who gave me their kind considerations rather than taking opportunity to have a go there was no need for anyone to be unnecessarily aggressive or obnoxious. The only reason I occasionally ask some people to leave me alone is that they have a problem they need to deal with. Learn manners and politeness and you can talk to me. I was accused wrongly of attacking people offering advice but why should I put up with unnecessary attacks like above

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[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-April-29, 17:13, said:

"What do you expect partner to do with a 3343 hand and all the missing non spade high cards ? he bids like this."
Ever heard of a 2S bid?

As I said, exactly 3 trumps and a ruffing value for us, NOT 3343

[the hog]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-30, 01:19, said:

<br>As I said, exactly 3 trumps and a ruffing value for us, NOT 3343<br>

<br><br>Not for the rest of the world.It is a silly agreement anyway as with a ruffing value and exactly 3 card support for pd you have 9, READ IT - NINE !!!! cards outside. Don't tell me you cannot make another response. Sorry but your answers get more illogical the more you post.<br>

[Cyberyeti]

Seeing the hand, what you did could have been right, K♣ onside or 7♥ in partner's hand, you may get 650 against 500. I think double/2♦ is a close decision with 4 bad hearts and 5 good diamonds.

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-April-30, 01:23, said:

<br><br>"for us"<br>Not for the rest of the world.It is a silly agreement anyway as with a ruffing value and exactly 3 card support for pd you have 9, READ IT - NINE !!!! cards outside. Don't tell me you cannot make another response. Sorry but your answers get more illogical the more you post.<br>

I said for us in the previous post, part of the reason is that we play a 4 card club with (F1 may contain 4M) inverted raise still on over the intervention.

Doubleton is a ruffing value where I play

[the hog]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-April-30, 01:28, said:

I said for us in the previous post, part of the reason is that we play a 4 card club with (F1 may contain 4M) inverted raise still on over the intervention.

Doubleton is a ruffing value where I play

'Doubleton is a ruffing value where I play" Not in the rest of the known universe.

[AL78]

It is very close between pass and 5♥, either could be right. Given the opponent's bidding it is unlikely partner has wasted values in spades and if they have a 10 card fit, we probably have a double fit. As it happens you have a triple fit but are unlucky partner's heart suit is so poor and the club finesse fails. I wouldn't beat yourself up over your decision to bid on.

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-April-30, 02:38, said:

'Doubleton is a ruffing value where I play" Not in the rest of the known universe.

Well I just googled "ruffing values" and the first two examples were doubletons, so I don't know which universe you're in.

[helene_t]

Thanks, Possum, for posting an interesting problem.

With 19 total trumps and 19 total tricks (ok, maybe 20 DD if NS play 5♦ but that would probably go down in practice) it is not unreasonable to bid at the 5-level. Seeing both hands it would feel a bit better to play 5m I think, but the 4NT route which I suggested would take us to 5♥. I am curious where other 4NT bidders would end up. Although, as I said, 4NT is my second choice as I would pass, but I am not sure if this deal actually vindicates me. I have made worse contracts than this 5♥, both at the club and against robots, and with 19 total tricks, 5-over-4 is right more often than not.

OTOH 650 is more than 620 so maybe 5♥ is good at MP. Robot tournaments are very homogenous fields so MP strategy applies more here than in real life MP.

I would expect only 18 total tricks on the auction, and hence my choice for pass. And the 11th spade doesn't usually matter. Then again, if you bid 4NT you might have found a 9 or 10 card club fit.