[jillybean]

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Partner will have 5 hearts and 5 of a minor, 6-10 points.

Edit, we are vulnerable, it will be 5-5

In our system we are required to bid 2NT (14+), partner will show his minor, 3♣

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-April-11, 16:40, said:

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Partner will have 5 hearts and 5 of a minor, 6-10 points.

In our system we are required to bid 2NT (14+), partner will show his minor, 3♣

I understand the simplicity and thus the attraction of the 14+ rule, but don’t get too wedded to such arbitrary rules. There will be many hands of fewer than 14 hcp on which its best to bid 2N

Btw, you should have a response structure over 2N

A simple one?

3m minimum

3H max with clubs

3S max with diamonds

After 3m, 3H is to play, 4m is forcing

Over 3H or 3S, 4m is forcing.

[mw64ahw]

I assume 3♣ is minimum i.e. ~9-11 total points.
3NT/5♣ both look makeable with 3NT the obvious call. 6♣ has a chance assuming each of partners long suits contains an honour and a ♥ ruff is available. I'll bid 3♦ and wait for openers response:
3♥ x(x) Axxxx x(x) Qxxxx
3♠ x Qxxxx xx Hxxxx
3NT xx Qxxxx, x Hxxxx
4♣ xx Qxxxx x AQxxx
Alternatively, if you're developing a response structure I'd make 3♥ the default response with higher bids being more constructive, but partnership understanding needs to be strong.

[DavidKok]

 mw64ahw, on 2023-April-11, 23:57, said:

I'll bid 3♦ and wait for openers response

And what will you bid when opener raises you to 4♦ on their doubleton, since you've shown long and strong diamonds with a spade weakness? A direct 3♦ over a Muiderberg is typically reserved for an invitational hand in opener's major suit.

A Muiderberg traditionally only shows 5M4(+)m. Demanding a fifth minor suit card changes the situation considerably, and I think we might have slam chances. As always with preempts this is highly subject to bidding style, and I really don't have a clue what to do opposite a random partner. 2NT, sure, but then what? I'll probably raise partner's 3♣ to 4 (forcing, sets trumps, slam try), though at MPs we rate to get a terrible score for 5♣ instead of 3NT. I think 4NT (quant) over 3♣ is also an option, but worse than setting trumps. As mikeh said the answer to 2NT should already promise/deny some amount of strength.

[ali quarg]

 DavidKok, on 2023-April-12, 02:21, said:

And what will you bid when opener raises you to 4♦ on their doubleton, since you've shown long and strong diamonds with a spade weakness? A direct 3♦ over a Muiderberg is typically reserved for an invitational hand in opener's major suit.

A Muiderberg traditionally only shows 5M4(+)m. Demanding a fifth minor suit card changes the situation considerably, and I think we might have slam chances. As always with preempts this is highly subject to bidding style, and I really don't have a clue what to do opposite a random partner. 2NT, sure, but then what? I'll probably raise partner's 3♣ to 4 (forcing, sets trumps, slam try), though at MPs we rate to get a terrible score for 5♣ instead of 3NT. I think 4NT (quant) over 3♣ is also an option, but worse than setting trumps. As mikeh said the answer to 2NT should already promise/deny some amount of strength.

That's why you need strong partnership agreements.
Passing 3♦ is more of an issue as you can always raise 4♦ to 5♣

[helene_t]

In Muiderberg, 3♦ is not a natural response to 2♥, it shows a good heart raise. A minority play 3♦ as to play. I have not heard of anyone who play it as a natural forcing bid.

2NT is the way to bid a good hand without heart support.

[Tramticket]

 helene_t, on 2023-April-12, 03:15, said:

In Muiderberg, 3♦ is not a natural response to 2♥, it shows a good heart raise. A minority play 3♦ as to play. I have not heard of anyone who play it as a natural forcing bid.

2NT is the way to bid a good hand without heart support.

We would treat 3♦ as to play. But we are only promising 5-4 distribution and it is a rare bid. I can't imagine ever bidding 3D as a natural bid opposite a 5-5 opening.

A 2NT response is normal and a good set of responses is needed.

[Cyberyeti]

 helene_t, on 2023-April-12, 03:15, said:

In Muiderberg, 3♦ is not a natural response to 2♥, it shows a good heart raise. A minority play 3♦ as to play. I have not heard of anyone who play it as a natural forcing bid.

2NT is the way to bid a good hand without heart support.

surprised by this, would have thought coming from a multi background it would be something like 4135 wanting to play 3♦ or bounce clubs

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2023-April-11, 23:11, said:

I understand the simplicity and thus the attraction of the 14+ rule, but don’t get too wedded to such arbitrary rules. There will be many hands of fewer than 14 hcp on which its best to bid 2N

Btw, you should have a response structure over 2N

A simple one?

3m minimum

3H max with clubs

3S max with diamonds

After 3m, 3H is to play, 4m is forcing

Over 3H or 3S, 4m is forcing.

I note your comment regarding the 14+ "rule"
Other than showing the second suit, we have no agreements, we will now.

3♥ clubs maximum

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Note; we are vulnerable 2H will promise 55

[mw64ahw]

Cue ♠ certainly not ready to sign-off

[jillybean]

 mw64ahw, on 2023-April-12, 08:25, said:

Cue ♠ certainly not ready to sign-off

Have you agreed a suit ?

[Cyberyeti]

What is a 1 opener for you ? a lot of the hands that make a slam are 1 openers for us, can partner have QJ10xx, AQJxx for example ?

[ali quarg]

 jillybean, on 2023-April-12, 08:39, said:

Have you agreed a suit ?

♣ by default.
If I had long ♠ I would have shown earlier/be bidding 4♠, ♥ support would be shown with 3♦, and I have no idea how it could be ♦

[mikeh]

Depends on agreements. There’s no ‘right’ answer.

Personally, absent clear agreement, I’d not bid 3S. I don’t see what purpose it serves. If it’s agreeing clubs, 4C by him isn’t a return cuebid, so we’re no further ahead.

I’d like to keycard here but that depends on agreements. When I played this gadget, 4D by me would be kickback, getting us to slam opposite 2 aces…if clubs are 3-2 then 6C makes opposite as little as xx Axxxx x Axxxx. But I’m going to slam opposite one ace anyway.

If he has one plus the club queen, we may be in a silly contract opposite xx AQJxx x Qxxxx, where 6N is at least as good as 6C but neither is likely to make. But x AJxxx xx QJxxx is decent.

Absent agreement to allow kickback, I bid 6C. I don’t see how cuebidding helps and, while I’d use kickback if I had it available, it doesn’t exactly answer all my concerns but I’m not staying out of slam. It rates to make more often than it fails.

If he has xx Axxxx xx AQxxx we’d discuss later whether this is a 1H opener but I wouldn’t want to be grand opposite that anyway.

[jillybean]

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Here's the full hand, we didn't play it. Many pairs opened Muider 2H and fell into the 3NT trap.
Only one pair found 6C after a 1H opening. I would open 1H

We are woefully lacking agreements over our 2H/2S openings and tend to fix problems are they come up. I now have more to discuss.

This will be my last post on bidding for a while. I am so focused on bidding hands that my play of the hand has not progressed and I make some awful mistakes.
It's time to dig out some old books on play of the hand.

[ali quarg]

 jillybean, on 2023-April-12, 11:14, said:

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Here's the full hand, we didn't play it. Many pairs opened Muider 2H and fell into the 3NT trap.
Only one pair found 6C after a 1H opening. I would open 1H

We are woefully lacking agreements over our 2H/2S openings and tend to fix problems are they come up. I now have more to discuss.

This will be my last post on bidding for a while. I am so focused on bidding hands that my play of the hand has not progressed and I make some awful mistakes.
It's time to dig out some old books on play of the hand.

It looks like 6NT is the optimal contract, so cue-bidding looks like the way to get there

[mikeh]

 ali quarg, on 2023-April-12, 14:43, said:

It looks like 6NT is the optimal contract, so cue-bidding looks like the way to get there

You have a way to cuebid the club and heart jacks? You should write a book😀

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2023-April-12, 14:57, said:

You have a way to cuebid the club and heart jacks? You should write a book😀

TBF you have 12 without the heart jack, but you need the club jack, if the weak hand does the asking (not quite sure how you engineer this) with both QJs, if he can find out about 2 AKs and the other 2 Ks he can bid it, but if the big hand asks it's well nigh impossible to be sure after a muiderberg.

[the hog]

4C which is forcing the way I play. (Hope it is for you - it should be.)

[jillybean]

 the hog, on 2023-April-12, 17:41, said:

4C which is forcing the way I play. (Hope it is for you - it should be.)

Yes, but I'm never sure how my partner will take it. It is always Ace ask Down Under.