[Cyberyeti]

Your agreement is that you play takeout doubles at the 4 level

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Any suggestions ?

Spoiler

If you pass, it goes P-P-4♠-P, what now ?

[nige1]

Cyberyeti 'Your agreement is that you play takeout doubles at the 4 level. Any suggestions?'
+++++++++++++++++
IMO Pass is the sensible action

Spoiler

Cyberyeti 'If you pass, it goes P-P-4♠-P, what now ?'
++++++++++++++++++
IMO Pass. Again, when fixed, stay fixed
Anyway, 4♠ must have reasonable prospects .

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[Winstonm]

Let them struggle- pass

[pescetom]

Pass looks sensible, if that is your cup of tea.
What would 4NT be here?

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2021-September-25, 15:54, said:

Pass looks sensible, if that is your cup of tea.
What would 4NT be here?

Some sort of takeout that didn't want partner to pass a double

[mikeh]

I think a direct 4N, over 4m, should be natural. No way is it takeout…for which suits? Just try playing 4M after 4N.

Meanwhile, say you hold Kx Ax AQ AKxxxxx?

Surely we’re not bidding 5C?

On the hand, this is an easy pass of 4D.

It’s not that I think that passing feels good. It doesn’t. But every other call feels horrific. When there is only one call that doesn’t rate to instantly consign us to hell, making that call should be easy

After the spoiler….this is as brutal a problem as I can recall. While passing again rates to get us a plus score, it also means missing a possibly cold slam or even grand.

I’m not at all confident about my answer, but I raise.

We’re I to bid a new suit, that should be a cue. Thus, when I raise I think I show all three Aces, plus something more (although not necessarily as much as I have…my side extras may compensate for my inadequate trump support).

He ‘should’ know what to do with long, solid trump.

Oh well.

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2021-September-25, 17:51, said:

I think a direct 4N, over 4m, should be natural. No way is it takeout…for which suits? Just try playing 4M after 4N.

What if your (say) M+♣ two-suiter is too good for 4M?

 mikeh, on 2021-September-25, 17:51, said:

Meanwhile, say you hold Kx Ax AQ AKxxxxx?

Surely we’re not bidding 5C?

X followed by 4N over 4M is not an option?

[Winstonm]

 mikeh, on 2021-September-25, 17:51, said:

I think a direct 4N, over 4m, should be natural. No way is it takeout…for which suits? Just try playing 4M after 4N.

Meanwhile, say you hold Kx Ax AQ AKxxxxx?

Surely we’re not bidding 5C?

On the hand, this is an easy pass of 4D.

It’s not that I think that passing feels good. It doesn’t. But every other call feels horrific. When there is only one call that doesn’t rate to instantly consign us to hell, making that call should be easy

After the spoiler….this is as brutal a problem as I can recall. While passing again rates to get us a plus score, it also means missing a possibly cold slam or even grand.

I’m not at all confident about my answer, but I raise.

We’re I to bid a new suit, that should be a cue. Thus, when I raise I think I show all three Aces, plus something more (although not necessarily as much as I have…my side extras may compensate for my inadequate trump support).

He ‘should’ know what to do with long, solid trump.

Oh well.

I considered a raise but I think it should be 6 spades - that narrows it to only spades

[apollo1201]

Pass in tempo.

And pass again at 4S, I’m not punishing partner who tried 4S with AQ to 6 or 7, void D and a side K. Minimum at red but realistic. We can’t expect nearly solid trumps and both rounded K.

5S might be in danger if we lose say a H and 2 trumps. Or 3 trumps when they split 7510 or worse around the table.

But if we are Xed, I am XXing. Won’t be cheap, but will likely lead to a blow bath.

[Cyberyeti]

 apollo1201, on 2021-September-26, 02:00, said:

Pass in tempo.

And pass again at 4S, I’m not punishing partner who tried 4S with AQ to 6 or 7, void D and a side K. Minimum at red but realistic. We can’t expect nearly solid trumps and both rounded K.

5S might be in danger if we lose say a H and 2 trumps. Or 3 trumps when they split 7510 or worse around the table.

But if we are Xed, I am XXing. Won’t be cheap, but will likely lead to a blow bath.

4N to me is something like a 1606 big hand where you don't want partner passing a double with a flat hand

You're not a million miles off in your assessment of what's going on, this is the whole hand:

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[DavidKok]

Pass, and 5NT (pick-a-slam) over 4♠. We have 4-5 tricks and partner's 4♠ is to make at these colours (bidding 'weak over weak' is asking for a penalty double by West).

In fact, one the main upsides of 4m as a natural preempt is that opponents will too often enter the auction on just a long major and some scattered values, allowing partner to double with some defence along with LOTT estimates.


The hand was posted as I was writing this comment, I expect partner will bid 6♥ which is two off on a spade ruff into a diamond switch for an uppercut, plus losing the queen of spades down the line. Or is there some better line of play? 4♠ also looks unattractive, why didn't partner double?

[mikeh]

 nullve, on 2021-September-25, 18:42, said:

What if your (say) M+♣ two-suiter is too good for 4M?


X followed by 4N over 4M is not an option?

I think that the chances that my hand, say some 6=6 major/clubs is too strong for 4M and too weak for 5N, imo clearly a two-suited monster, are very low.

Add to that that double followed by 4N sure sounds to me like keycard and I prefer 4N over 4D to be to play.

Finally, I think it a very good rule that direct non-jump overcalls of notrump by an unpassed hand will ‘usually’ be natural. The only exception I can think of is after 4M by an opp. Now 4N as minors is too frequent/useful to give up, plus it’s pretty normal to play that a double of 4M shows roughly the equivalent of a strong notrump overcall (but not in anyway suggesting a stopper). While one could still hold a hand where one would like to bid a natural 4N over 4M, minors is, imo, more common.