BBO Discussion Forums: Precision question - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Precision question

#1 User is offline   enigmisto 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 17
  • Joined: 2020-June-17

Posted 2021-June-01, 23:04

I have been learning Precision from the book Precision 101, and have a question about gauging whether partnership has strength for slam.

Let's say opener opens with 1C (16+ HCP). Responder gives a positive transfer response of 2D (indicating 5+ Hearts and 8+ pts).

Opener has 3 Hearts, so happily accepts the transfer with 2H.

In Precision 101, accepting the transfer is a TAB (Trump asking bid), and responder then answers. Opener can continue with various Control-asking bids, and get a pretty good picture of the strength of their partner's trump suit and their controls.

However, it seems to me that this is not enough to gauge whether to go to slam or initiate Blackwood. Responder has never had an opportunity to clarify the strength of their hand, they've just been busy answering CAB and TAB questions. Responder could have 8 points or 17+ points -- an enormous difference.

So what am I missing here? How does opener assess the point strength of partner when partner has never had a chance to speak beyond answering asking bids? Do points not matter when you have the answers to the asking bids? Or is partner supposed to reject the asking bids entirely and jump to game with a weak hand?

Thanks.
0

#2 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 219
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-June-01, 23:28

I can't say I am an expert on old-style Precision but I think the idea is that after the TAB and AAB asks, you should have a reasonable idea of partner's basic strength and further CABs clarify as required. I think the issue you have come across is one of the reasons the Blue Team developed their Alpha-Beta asking system, so you might consider switching to Italian Asking Bids if you think you can handle them. In truth though, Asking Bids have somewhat gone out of fashion and most modern Precision variants are based on shape relays followed either by control-showing or RKCB. Ideally you would be able to try out each of these methods to find out which matches best to your way of thinking.
1

#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 446
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-June-02, 03:43

View Postenigmisto, on 2021-June-01, 23:04, said:

However, it seems to me that this is not enough to gauge whether to go to slam or initiate Blackwood. Responder has never had an opportunity to clarify the strength of their hand, they've just been busy answering CAB and TAB questions. Responder could have 8 points or 17+ points -- an enormous difference.


the asking bids should clarify what responder has: a minimum hand or much more. if I have 17+ points and opener bids only to game I bid on. there can be confusion when stiffs and voids are shown as reply to CABs except if you use relay to show these instead of aces/kings. the problem hands lie in the range of about c.11-14 where there is definite game and possible slam. however opener is almost always boss except if you have hand of strength like his. some judgement is needed I agree with that.
0

#4 User is online   PrecisionL 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 868
  • Joined: 2004-March-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Knoxville, TN, USA
  • Interests:Sapphire LM (4980+ MP) District 7, Unit 165, E. Tennessee

Posted 2021-June-02, 06:28

TABs have gone out-of-favor by most strong club players. Try one of the these two approaches (there are more complicated possibilities):

(a) Acceptance of the transfer is a Beta Ask for A+K control total, A = 2, K=1. Responses: 0-1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Opener only uses this if he has no good suit of his own. 10+ controls required for slam if there is no void or singleton in the hand.

(b) Acceptance of the transfer is a QP ask where A=3, K=2, Q=1. Reponses by steps: 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 etc. This gives a better indication of responder's strength. This can be followed up with an Ace ask. Sometimes you can figure out the exact honors. Posted Image

Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Played Mosca (Nightmare-Fantunes-Millennium like) system with canapé, 11-14 NT.

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Also Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail Club. 2020: C3 Reborn - T-Precision with Relays & 4cd M. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Canape & Strong Relay.
1

#5 User is offline   HardVector 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 431
  • Joined: 2018-May-28

Posted 2021-June-03, 01:41

Consider updating your system a bit. A lot of the modern precision systems categorize responders action into 1d=0-7, 1h=8-11, higher bids=more and potentially slammish. This gives a 1c opener an idea of how hard to push the slam idea. If you have a minimum 1c opener and partner bids 1h (8-11), then you know that slam is unlikely unless they have the perfect hand. A place you can find this spelled out is in Meckwell precision.
0

#6 User is offline   spotlight7 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 341
  • Joined: 2009-March-21

Posted 2021-June-03, 14:26

View PostHardVector, on 2021-June-03, 01:41, said:

Consider updating your system a bit. A lot of the modern precision systems categorize responders action into 1d=0-7, 1h=8-11, higher bids=more and potentially slammish. This gives a 1c opener an idea of how hard to push the slam idea. If you have a minimum 1c opener and partner bids 1h (8-11), then you know that slam is unlikely unless they have the perfect hand. A place you can find this spelled out is in Meckwell precision.


1C-1H 8-11 is used in Meckwell Lite. Meckwell
uses transfers such as 1C-1H shows spades.
0

#7 User is offline   akwoo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,009
  • Joined: 2010-November-21

Posted 2021-June-03, 18:31

View Postenigmisto, on 2021-June-01, 23:04, said:

I have been learning Precision from the book Precision 101, and have a question about gauging whether partnership has strength for slam.

Let's say opener opens with 1C (16+ HCP). Responder gives a positive transfer response of 2D (indicating 5+ Hearts and 8+ pts).

Opener has 3 Hearts, so happily accepts the transfer with 2H.

In Precision 101, accepting the transfer is a TAB (Trump asking bid), and responder then answers. Opener can continue with various Control-asking bids, and get a pretty good picture of the strength of their partner's trump suit and their controls.

However, it seems to me that this is not enough to gauge whether to go to slam or initiate Blackwood. Responder has never had an opportunity to clarify the strength of their hand, they've just been busy answering CAB and TAB questions. Responder could have 8 points or 17+ points -- an enormous difference.

So what am I missing here? How does opener assess the point strength of partner when partner has never had a chance to speak beyond answering asking bids? Do points not matter when you have the answers to the asking bids? Or is partner supposed to reject the asking bids entirely and jump to game with a weak hand?

Thanks.


Points don't usually matter much when you have the answers to the asking bids. It does sometimes happen that you need to know about a few queens, but that is unusual.

Let's say you hold Kxx KQx x AKQxxx, and the auction goes 1C-2D-2H-2N-3C-3H-3S-4D, and partner has shown 6 hearts to one top honor and 4 AK-points (which has to be 2 aces here). I think 6H looks pretty good...
0

#8 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,817
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2021-June-03, 19:09

View Postspotlight7, on 2021-June-03, 14:26, said:

Meckwell uses transfers such as 1C-1H shows spades.

I believe they play

1-1 = 8+, 5+ S OR 11-13 BAL
0

#9 User is online   foobar 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 305
  • Joined: 2003-June-20
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-June-04, 09:59

View Postenigmisto, on 2021-June-01, 23:04, said:

I have been learning Precision from the book Precision 101, and have a question about gauging whether partnership has strength for slam.

Let's say opener opens with 1C (16+ HCP). Responder gives a positive transfer response of 2D (indicating 5+ Hearts and 8+ pts).

Opener has 3 Hearts, so happily accepts the transfer with 2H.

In Precision 101, accepting the transfer is a TAB (Trump asking bid), and responder then answers. Opener can continue with various Control-asking bids, and get a pretty good picture of the strength of their partner's trump suit and their controls.

However, it seems to me that this is not enough to gauge whether to go to slam or initiate Blackwood. Responder has never had an opportunity to clarify the strength of their hand, they've just been busy answering CAB and TAB questions. Responder could have 8 points or 17+ points -- an enormous difference.

So what am I missing here? How does opener assess the point strength of partner when partner has never had a chance to speak beyond answering asking bids? Do points not matter when you have the answers to the asking bids? Or is partner supposed to reject the asking bids entirely and jump to game with a weak hand?

Thanks.


As others have noted, the methods described above are really dated, and the recommendation is to adopt something like Standard Modern Precision (https://bridgewithdan.com/books/).
0

#10 User is offline   mycroft 

  • Secretary Bird
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,995
  • Joined: 2003-July-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Calgary, Canada

Posted 2021-June-04, 12:19

Which is great if you have someone else willing to learn it, because everybody else still only knows "old-fashioned". Same with me and my Precision Today system, or X over there with his Rigal precision, or...

akwoo has the answer. The idea behind the asking bid structure is that you should be able to "fill in the holes" in your hand by asking the right questions, and know if you have slam or not. If you don't have that kind of hand, go the natural route instead of the asking bid route. Those pairs where all positive auctions are asking bid auctions have trouble when what opener needs to know about is quacks to fill in suit for tricks; but that happens. The basic precision you're looking at can TAB and CAB or can do something that turns off asking bids and then agrees partner's suit (or has a way to agree partner's suit without triggering TAB).

When to know if your hand is the kind that needs TAB and CAB answers or when different information is required is one of the things that comes from experience. Note that, as always, "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users