[maris oren]

opponents opened with 3♠. my partner doubled. what is the meaning? Penalty or take out?

[Cyberyeti]

maris oren, on 2021-February-24, 13:37, said:

opponents opened with 3♠. my partner doubled. what is the meaning? Penalty or take out?

Take out to anybody under 70 and many over that age

[pescetom]

Take out, in absence of UI.

[nige1]

Maris Oren 'opponents opened with 3♠. my partner doubled. what is the meaning? Penalty or take out?'
++++++++++++++++++++++
In most modern systems, double is T/O. For historical interest, in the old days, double was usually "penalty" or "optional". Common agreements were:
- Fishbein: cheapest suit bid was artificial takeout.
- Lower minor: cheaper minor was artificial takeout.
- 3N for takeout (this makes some sense when double is penalty -- and was the most popular convention in Scottish clubs).

---

[Cyberyeti]

nige1, on 2021-February-24, 15:40, said:

Maris Oren 'opponents opened with 3♠. my partner doubled. what is the meaning? Penalty or take out?'
++++++++++++++++++++++
In most modern systems, double is T/O. For historical interest, in the old days, double was usually "penalty" or "optional". Common agreements were:
- Fishbein: cheapest suit bid was artificial takeout.
- Lower minor: cheaper minor was artificial takeout.
- 3N for takeout (this makes some sense when double is penalty -- and was the most popular convention in Scottish clubs).

---

When I was starting in bridge, FILM was in use, the takeouts were 3♦ over 3♣, X over 3♦, 4♣ over 3M

[pescetom]

nige1, on 2021-February-24, 15:40, said:

- 3N for takeout (this makes some sense when double is penalty -- and was the most popular convention in Scottish clubs).

analogous with a 'chaser' of whisky after a beer, another once popular convention

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-February-24, 15:43, said:

When I was starting in bridge, FILM was in use, the takeouts were 3♦ over 3♣, X over 3♦, 4♣ over 3M

I used to play FILMX, like FILM but double was always take-out in fourth seat. Not too bad, and kept opposing pre-empts in check especially at IMPs.

[mycroft]

I think Fishbein might work very well if say 1% of players went back to playing it. The problem is that the bidders, after being caught once, "use judgement" to tighten up their weak 2s against them, and now playing takeout doubles is superior again. Now, it would be interesting to see a pair that plays Fishbein in months ending in Y...

But if you decide to do this, you have to practise it enough that you are intuitively comfortable. Several pairs decided on hearing our EHAA preAlert that they were playing Fishbein. We welcomed it, even if in theory it's better than takeout, in practise with pairs that hadn't played it for 25 years if at all, it just screwed up both their auctions and their defence to our auctions.

[DavidKok]

As the old saying on Nash equilibria goes - "If you never miss a plane, you're spending too much time in airports". I can assure you I would not modify my aggressive preempts for 1% Fishbein players (or 10%, for that matter). In fact I have a standing bet with my partner that whenever one of us goes -800 on a preempt doubled and passed out they get a beer from the other (and so far it remains unclaimed!).

[mycroft]

Makes sense. But it probably would work well for the Fishbein players who get to feast on 40-50% of the field.

And heh, my qualification for DC came from 1100 in 2♠, doubled and floated. 22 boards into the match we were down 22. Partners rightsided a game we set on 23, and then...

[DavidKok]

I do not believe Fishbein will let you "feast on 40-50% of the field". Against modern aggressive opponents you can pick up some interesting swings, but I expect you to lose them on the more frequent boards where you do not hold a penalty double.

[mycroft]

As I said, I think it would be interesting to find out. I will say that I switched from penalty doubles of weak NT interference to takeout because the reward was overwhelmed by the frequency. May still be for "modern" weak 2s - and if you think I'm in favour of "traditional" weak 2s, read my history (or my comment on EHAA vs Fishbein above).

They haven't convinced me yet that 1m-x-1M-x should be takeout, even though it probably works better, more often. There's just too many people (me, for instance) that will "guess" to bid a two-card major instead of raising partner's minor.

[DavidKok]

mycroft, on 2021-February-26, 15:38, said:

As I said, I think it would be interesting to find out. I will say that I switched from penalty doubles of weak NT interference to takeout because the reward was overwhelmed by the frequency. May still be for "modern" weak 2s - and if you think I'm in favour of "traditional" weak 2s, read my history (or my comment on EHAA vs Fishbein above).

They haven't convinced me yet that 1m-x-1M-x should be takeout, even though it probably works better, more often. There's just too many people (me, for instance) that will "guess" to bid a two-card major instead of raising partner's minor.

As far as I know this last double is decidedly penalty, to expose 'automatic' psyches. I've only run into one so far, but then again the auction for it is not all that common.
Besides, partner has already doubled for takeout. If you want to play instead of defend just bid a suit, partner has support.

[mycroft]

You would think so, but that is terminally naïve these days. It's been a "responsive double" for basically every non-A player (and many who got graduated into A) for 20 years.

I've even seen professional teachers whose opinions I trust if not recommending this, at least allowing it as an option (with a warning that traditionally this is penalty, and do not just assume your partner is not a traditionalist).

The "psychics are illegal (or should be), immoral, and fattening" brigade has made it such that it probably is a better use of the call, from a frequency standpoint at least. Lose the 4=4 fits with the known 4-1 break, but are they really a loss?

[DavidKok]

Fair enough, I know my partner also plays it as penalty. It might also depend on your doubling style. It is becoming increasingly common to double on any hand that is about a queen short of an opening bid, shape and location of honours be damned. With such a style the responsive double might be your last shot at reaching a 7-card fit.

[mikestar13]

My grandfather played (3♠) - X as takeout, and I'm 64 in April. Fishbein himself stopped playing Fishbein after a while, it is a poor convention. Of course there are more hands where it's reasonable to leave the takout double in than in the (1♠) - X case.