[Geoff103]

m00036, on 2020-July-30, 07:09, said:

So please, if you're reading and contributing to this forum, make comments based on the facts and official correspondence as opposed to unfair rumours and assumptions. BBO admins do read these posts (and I hope any delays to procedural changes are because they are taking our views into account) and it's more likely that you will be prevented from running tournaments for complaining here than because of BBO making a last minute and detrimental (to themselves as well as others) change to their terms and conditions.

What makes you think I haven't been emailed by BBO? I have and the response was cagey. Fully supporting my original post.

If things are not changing, then why not just announce that?

[pgrice]

m00036, on 2020-July-30, 07:09, said:

So please, if you're reading and contributing to this forum, make comments based on the facts and official correspondence as opposed to unfair rumours and assumptions. BBO admins do read these posts (and I hope any delays to procedural changes are because they are taking our views into account) and it's more likely that you will be prevented from running tournaments for complaining here than because of BBO making a last minute and detrimental (to themselves as well as others) change to their terms and conditions.

I would much prefer to comment on what BBO are going to do and not rumour ... but they haven't seen fit to let some of their user base (customers!) know what will happen in 2 days time what do you expect?

I fully appreciate that BBO isn't a charity and deserve to be rewarded for the service they provide. I sincerely hope the suggestion you make that users might be punished for complaining in this forum is not in their thinking. If it is, I may be playing my last game on BBO tonight.

Peter

[m00036]

I agree that it's unhelpful for BBO not to keep players informed, but my feeling at present is that it's more likely BBO haven't finalised the changes as yet, and their original statement said that solutions to meet players' needs will continue to be offered from August 1st. This would include free tournaments, whereas it wouldn't include the sudden revocation of all director privileges. Enough people have emailed BBO for them to know that the latter solution will be detrimental to their success and membership, especially given the rise of competitor options (some which have been introduced already and many that are still being developed).

pgrice, on 2020-July-30, 09:59, said:

I sincerely hope the suggestion you make that users might be punished for complaining in this forum is not in their thinking. If it is, I may be playing my last game on BBO tonight.

I was saying that it's more likely that a director would be suspended for disagreeing with BBO's approach on how it uses their platform (directors must be in good standing with BBO to retain privileges after all) than for BBO to lose a significant proportion of its membership in a day, and I'd like to think that both situations are incredibly remote (and obviously revoking director's privileges for forum comments sets a dangerous precedent). BBO's pricing and business structure will have to continue to evolve - virtual clubs are starting up but also stopping because the financial model offered by BBO isn't sustainable at a 60/40 (soon to be 50/50) split (one of my own virtual clubs included). Recognising that changes are coming, BBO simply provided room to potentially make changes from August (incremental, sudden or otherwise), but given that there is now just one working day left in the month, I suspect there will simply be a notification of planned incremental changes in the next few days as opposed to any immediate move. I hope for the sake of all those that have been longtime members (and indeed recent newcomers) of/to BBO, and for the bridge community at large, that I am not proved wrong this weekend.

[game1980]

Reply from BBO

New procedures for tournament creation rights are: Going forward, everyone will
have to pay for tournaments creation. So yes, your free TD rights will cease.
I think we should schedule one last one before your free TD rights cease.

[diana_eva]

BBO will not cease free tournament permissions on August 1st. We will cease them at some point, not very far away in the future, but not without some reasonable heads-up warning.

We have not finalized the procedures to help existing free tourney hosts organize their online activity going forward. I apologize for the less than perfect communication on this subject.

What we do know is the following:

Going forward, permission to create tournaments on the BBO platform will be a pay service.

NBOs get better terms and conditions than singular non-affiliated individuals and business. So if you're a club affiliated to an NBO that already has a virtual club system on BBO, it will be cheaper to enroll as a virtual club than continue as an autonomous entity.

There will be three types of payment models:

1. For small free tourneys limited to max 20 tables, one at a time (ie what most free tourney hosts have now) a small monthly fee, offered as a subscription service. This is the part that we're still working on, sorry.
For people who need more than 20 tables and/or more than one tourney at a time, they can
2. run pay tournaments with a BB$ entry fee, where players pay their own entry fees in BB$ and BBO gives the club their earnings at the end of each month (after taking a %)
3. run their tournaments free of charge on BBO, and pay a fix fee per table to BBO. This is convenient for clubs, pros and business who already have their own payment processing implemented, and have the ability to charge their players offline.

The monthly subscription is not available yet, we hope to finalize it soon. Once this is finalized we will proceed to announce all affected players and eventually stop the free tourney permissions for the people who are not in the categories of free hosts mentioned below.

The other two types of payment models are available (BB$ or fix table fee), and you can reach us at tournaments@bridgebase.com to express your preference over one or the other.

A few clarifications:

Long time online hosts who have been organizing free tourneys on BBO for years, and are not affiliated with live business, clubs, bridge orgs, etc. continue to have the ability to run free, unlimited games, just like they always had (thing of BBO Hornets, or bbo clubs like the IAC, Acol, etc. ) I'm surprised to see nobody mentioned this, but we have reached out to a few hundred long time hosts and users, since the end of June, and offered them a way to continue their activities as usual, free of charge. Maybe everyone thought this was secret

If you are doing junior training, bridge in schools, charity events or any bridge activity where commerce should not be involved (eg kids), you can contact us and we'll give you permission to do it for free. NBOs already have their own junior and training programs and special accounts with access to free unlimited games, so if you are doing it for NBO training purposes you can simply ask your NBO to give you access to their Youth / JR account, or have them set up some extra JR training accounts for you.

Bridge clubs, organizations, associations, pros, teachers, and entities that normally charge a fee to their players in order to let them play or organize a tournament for them, will be asked to enter a commercial agreement with BBO going forward, as their activities are of commercial nature.

[Vampyr]

Are the free tournaments which will still be allowed be open to everyone? It seems fair that they should be from the players’ point of view, rather than some people having access to free tournaments and some people not.

[diana_eva]

Vampyr, on 2020-July-31, 05:40, said:

Are the free tournaments which will still be allowed be open to everyone? It seems fair that they should be from the players' point of view, rather than some people having access to free tournaments and some people not.

Yes, the vast majority, although there are some traditionally country-limited games as well, such as a series of Polish hosts, French hosts, etc. who have always offered Polish or French specific tournaments.

They would however not be limited to an include list of 20 people, but large, generally available free tournaments even if some filters can exists.

By the way there have been free unlimited tournaments all along, since our big "We're back!" announcement.

You can see them at any time if you go online. Everything that has more than 20 table now will continue to have it (assuming the hosts and groups who received these extra permissions continue to do the free volunteer work they have been doing, and not switch to doing business based on their unlimited free hosting rights)

[gentgiant]

Once the pandemic has waned and clubs go back to f2f, this income stream will shrink to a dribble.

And much goodwill lost.

[hrothgar]

diana_eva, on 2020-July-31, 05:28, said:

BBO will not cease free tournament permissions on August 1st. We will cease them at some point, not very far away in the future, but not without some reasonable heads-up warning.

Bridgebase's new owners are killing the platform.

Speaking as a long time, and formerly enthusiastic user, I am very very glad that there are new offers on the horizon.

[coffee3]

To Diana_eva

Well, so BBO will become exactly the same as Funbridge - same owner, greedy commercial guy who is not a bridge player. I suspected these "changes". Once these new rules are implemented, with BBO as I know it since its creation is finished. Lots of people, including me, would prefer not to play at all rather than to pay for poor services. On top of that the owner, Olivie Comte breaks the Corporate Social Responsibility rules. Big deal. I don't care anymore about BBO. Whatever I had done as free, voluntary work, my own investments in a website and other relevant costs as Organiser of free tournaments. BBO hasn't paid a penny for my work and advertising. Was a fair deal. Soon this Value added by me and others will disappear.

[jandrew]

diana_eva, on 2020-July-31, 05:28, said:

Long time online hosts who have been organizing free tourneys on BBO for years, and are not affiliated with live business, clubs, bridge orgs, etc. continue to have the ability to run free, unlimited games, just like they always had (thing of BBO Hornets, or bbo clubs like the IAC, Acol, etc. ) I'm surprised to see nobody mentioned this, but we have reached out to a few hundred long time hosts and users, since the end of June, and offered them a way to continue their activities as usual, free of charge. Maybe everyone thought this was secret

You mention the Acol Players' Club and on the Club's behalf I must say, first, that I have always been impressed by the courtesy and help shown to us by BBO and the 'yellows' (Diana, in particular) especially during these difficult past four months.

I need to consider this latest information from Diana - and what is clearly coming later - but I can comment on this quoted paragraph immediately. I had no idea how many users, hosts and other clubs have benefited from the ability to run free unlimited games. I have not mentioned it because I had assumed that we were only a few - so, yes, I have not previously mentioned it on the forum because I have thought it to be a secret.

[eamongall]

Folks

Bridgebase has been around a long time. Fred Gitelman and maybe some of his mates made it many years ago. I played bridge against Fred Gitelman (Brad Moss skinned me because I told him my hand by bidding unusual 2NT). Before that I met Fred Giltelman when he was in Ireland at Buffet Cup. Later when I was at US Nationals in San Francisco the same Fred Gitelman had time to smoke his cigarettes with me .."I see those guys over there every week" said he indicating a bunch of world class players standing around George Mittleman.

Anyway Bridgebase was here since a long time and suddenly the pandemic is here and NO MORE CARDS ......thus the whole bridge enterprise descended on Bridgebase ... enterprise being the word ....so Bridgebase was able to handle what was thrown at it and keep the "whole bridge enterprise " going.

There many bridge people who used to make pocket money from face to face bridge who have not made a penny since THE CARDS STOPPED.. there are some folk who will never play bridge with cards again ..

We as bridge players have been very lucky to have Bridgebase through our lockdowns. Many other games and activities could not suddenly go online ..

Bridge in the pandemic/lockdown is very different than pre pandemic. Bridgebase Online was able to sustain us so they should be entitled to some of the money that would have been filtering through our local small bridge clubs as Bridgebase is now providing that service. In Ireland many clubs are going the virtual club route to maintain their own identity and could not do this without BBO.

Pre COVID I worked several nights as a face to face tournament director. Over the years I have used BBO for many things like running practice team matches ..facilitating bidding practice ...running some free tournaments...and most of all being the main BBO vugraph operator for Ireland North and South.

A long time ago maybe early 2000s I ended up playing in a circle of players that included Agustin Madala and Justin Lall both now legends of the game even if one has retired for now. There were other players who are still rampaging on Bridgewinners.

I suspect if folk engage with Bridgebase then for the smaller director or solely online bridge person there will be allowances made. Its not going to break the bank if Tommy or Jack has a little 3-5 table event running for his small club as long as no money that BBO should have a share of is floating around.

There are also competitions like the Inter City European League that used to be run by man who passed on called Tonci or something like that from Croatia which is now a massive 50 cities.

So I think bridgebase is entitled to some of the large segment of bridge club income that no longer exists in face to face for now ...

All I can say is I have had a good time with Bridgebase and I even pay the Prime subscription as it is worth it for the robots alone which I used for a few training games.

I was also around pre BBO when an email dropped into my inbox with a text based GIB around 1996 for testing from Matt Ginsberg ..

So I have had a good spin with Bridgebase Online ...and not paid too much in 20 years.

Oh and Aurora is only the messenger ... I don't think she is an owner ..so don't shoot the messenger

No doubt I will get stick for this but if I don't log in for a week I will be okay

Thanks
Eamon Galligan
eamongall on BBO

[Rossoneri]

From the perspective of a NBO trying to negotiate with BBO, the whole experience has been disappointing.

Back in April, I was told that BBO is "busy" and will not be negotiating new deals.

Fast forward to June and we get told that whatever existing tournament rights we have to run free games will be taken away 1st August and that details will be announced soon (which never materialized). BBO Support just kept replying that Management will contact me soon after they are "back from holidays". This has been pretty much the most of July, and there was NO mention at all about what happens to existing rights. Much as the support team has been fairly prompt with their replies, but the fact that BBO Management dropped us a bombshell and then went off to holidays just speaks volumes about how much they care.

Given the above and how TD-unfriendly the BBO system is in general (adjusted scores take time to reflect, no easy way to check on all the current tournament scores etc., no possible way to give weight adjustments), it raises questions as to whether any payment is going be "worth it".

diana_eva, on 2020-July-31, 05:28, said:

BBO will not cease free tournament permissions on August 1st. We will cease them at some point, not very far away in the future, but not without some reasonable heads-up warning.

We have not finalized the procedures to help existing free tourney hosts organize their online activity going forward. I apologize for the less than perfect communication on this subject.

What we do know is the following:

Going forward, permission to create tournaments on the BBO platform will be a pay service.

NBOs get better terms and conditions than singular non-affiliated individuals and business. So if you're a club affiliated to an NBO that already has a virtual club system on BBO, it will be cheaper to enroll as a virtual club than continue as an autonomous entity.

There will be three types of payment models:

1. For small free tourneys limited to max 20 tables, one at a time (ie what most free tourney hosts have now) a small monthly fee, offered as a subscription service. This is the part that we're still working on, sorry.
For people who need more than 20 tables and/or more than one tourney at a time, they can
2. run pay tournaments with a BB$ entry fee, where players pay their own entry fees in BB$ and BBO gives the club their earnings at the end of each month (after taking a %)
3. run their tournaments free of charge on BBO, and pay a fix fee per table to BBO. This is convenient for clubs, pros and business who already have their own payment processing implemented, and have the ability to charge their players offline.

The monthly subscription is not available yet, we hope to finalize it soon. Once this is finalized we will proceed to announce all affected players and eventually stop the free tourney permissions for the people who are not in the categories of free hosts mentioned below.

The other two types of payment models are available (BB$ or fix table fee), and you can reach us at tournaments@bridgebase.com to express your preference over one or the other.

A few clarifications:

Long time online hosts who have been organizing free tourneys on BBO for years, and are not affiliated with live business, clubs, bridge orgs, etc. continue to have the ability to run free, unlimited games, just like they always had (thing of BBO Hornets, or bbo clubs like the IAC, Acol, etc. ) I'm surprised to see nobody mentioned this, but we have reached out to a few hundred long time hosts and users, since the end of June, and offered them a way to continue their activities as usual, free of charge. Maybe everyone thought this was secret

If you are doing junior training, bridge in schools, charity events or any bridge activity where commerce should not be involved (eg kids), you can contact us and we'll give you permission to do it for free. NBOs already have their own junior and training programs and special accounts with access to free unlimited games, so if you are doing it for NBO training purposes you can simply ask your NBO to give you access to their Youth / JR account, or have them set up some extra JR training accounts for you.

Bridge clubs, organizations, associations, pros, teachers, and entities that normally charge a fee to their players in order to let them play or organize a tournament for them, will be asked to enter a commercial agreement with BBO going forward, as their activities are of commercial nature.

[Capt_Ravi]

diana_eva, on 2020-July-31, 05:28, said:

BBO will not cease free tournament permissions on August 1st. We will cease them at some point, not very far away in the future, but not without some reasonable heads-up warning.

We have not finalized the procedures to help existing free tourney hosts organize their online activity going forward. I apologize for the less than perfect communication on this subject.

What we do know is the following:

Going forward, permission to create tournaments on the BBO platform will be a pay service.

NBOs get better terms and conditions than singular non-affiliated individuals and business. So if you're a club affiliated to an NBO that already has a virtual club system on BBO, it will be cheaper to enroll as a virtual club than continue as an autonomous entity.

There will be three types of payment models:

1. For small free tourneys limited to max 20 tables, one at a time (ie what most free tourney hosts have now) a small monthly fee, offered as a subscription service. ..........................

Has the subscription service for this purpose started? Have I missed any announcements in this regard?

[gentgiant]

Capt_Ravi, on 2020-August-06, 02:06, said:

Has the subscription service for this purpose started? Have I missed any announcements in this regard?

And does this new subscription arrangement for TDs extend to charging for Team Matches?

[m00036]

gentgiant, on 2020-August-15, 01:33, said:

And does this new subscription arrangement for TDs extend to charging for Team Matches?

No announcements yet, and only pairs events will be affected. Therefore team matches will remain free of charge (as long as the organisation involved doesn't charge for entry offline as this is against BBO's terms).

[gentgiant]

m00036, on 2020-August-15, 05:33, said:

No announcements yet, and only pairs events will be affected. Therefore team matches will remain free of charge (as long as the organisation involved doesn't charge for entry offline as this is against BBO's terms).

My reading of an EBU communication to Virtual Clubs suggests Team Matches will be charged sometime from September onwards. Quite how much or how payment is to be made is not clear.

[Vampyr]

gentgiant, on 2020-August-15, 07:43, said:

My reading of an EBU communication to Virtual Clubs suggests Team Matches will be charged sometime from September onwards. Quite how much or how payment is to be made is not clear.

Wow, team matches are often just casual arrangements among friends. Can someone suggest another platform for team matches?

[hrothgar]

Vampyr, on 2020-August-15, 11:23, said:

Wow, team matches are often just casual arrangements among friends. Can someone suggest another platform for team matches?

I think that you are misreading what is being written

Team matches between friends (where a director / organizer are not charging any money) will continue to be free.

Team matches where someone is charging to run an event will involve a charge.
Presumably, the EBU is planning charge so BBO is planning to take a slice.

[gentgiant]

hrothgar, on 2020-August-15, 11:34, said:

I think that you are misreading what is being written

Team matches between friends (where a director / organizer are not charging any money) will continue to be free.

Team matches where someone is charging to run an event will involve a charge.
Presumably, the EBU is planning charge so BBO is planning to take a slice.

How naive. Have you seen the EBU communication? It does not refer to its own Team Leagues or Club leagues where charges are made.

But Club Leagues that require, effectively, a TD who can run multiple Teams matches concurrently. A privilege that is not available to ordinary BBO members. Clubs that do not currently charge.

BBO is obviously using the Covid-19 Pandemic to monetize every quarter of the site, they can manage. In a very short time, the opportunity will fade as the clubs go back to F2F.