[kgr]

Quiz #4

Contract again 7NT.

West leads the ♦9, top from nothing.

You win the diamond king in dummy and immediately play a ♠ to Queen, which wins.

Examine BLUE, figure out the defects (if any) and plan the play.

---

This is one of Ben's Squeeze quize hands.
I see that you have a compound squeeze here.
But after searching a looong time, I found that after the ♠ finesse you have to play ♥ immediatly without playing ♦ A first.
For me it looked intuitive that you can first cash ♦ A; This is no entree anyway.
I understood from Ben's lessons that you should not touch the entrees in the shared threats. But I don't see why you can't cash ♦ A.

I would never find this at the table! Is there a rule, advise or anything that make it clear not to cash ♦ A first?

PS1: I did post this in the beginner tread because Ben's lessons were also here. I think however that it is usefull reading for most BBO 'experts' as well.
PS2: ...hope this questions triggers Ben for some more squeeze lessons

[Free]

I think you may not cash ♦A because you don't know yet if you have to discard a ♠ or a ♣ in dummy.

[kgr]

Free, on May 26 2005, 02:22 PM, said:

I think you may not cash ♦A because you don't know yet if you have to discard a ♠ or a ♣ in dummy.

Probably very right!!
But this triggers another question with me

What are the shared threads? Clubs and Spades in dummy?

Looking at this hand I would think:
- shared threads are in declarers hand....No this cannot be right ... the ♦ thread is already in declarer's hand and all threads cannot be in the same hand.
- shared thread ♠ in declarer's hand; ♣ shared thread in dummy? Both shared threads in dummy? How can I see this?

[Fluffy]

Is it compound squeeze the best option here? compond squeeze needs a perfect or almost perfect count of the hand, and here you have nothing close to it.

I am not sure but I think playing East for 4+♠ and ♦QJ (or 4♠+5♣) has better chances of success.

[Trumpace]

Free said: We don't know what to discard on the ♦A yet... Why?

We know that East controls diamonds. If he also controls spades we have a spade-diamond simple squeeze against East. In that case it does not matter what we drop from the dummy on the ♦A. In case west holds onto spades, we can have a spade in hand as a threat and a club in dummy as threat against West. In that case we can discard a spade from dummy on the ♦A.

Are you saying we _might_ need to keep the spade in dummy as a threat, rather than the spade in hand as the threat?

My guess is: reading the end position becomes difficult/impossible if we discard early on the ♦A. (We won't know who controls spades?).


I was not able to find this hand in Ben's thread about squeezes... Can anyone point me to the discussion of this hand?

[kgr]

Fluffy, on May 26 2005, 08:25 PM, said:

Is it compound squeeze the best option here? compond squeeze needs a perfect or almost perfect count of the hand, and here you have nothing close to it.

I am not sure but I think playing East for 4+♠ and ♦QJ (or 4♠+5♣) has better chances of success.

I think that if East has ♦QJ then the compound squeeze will always work.
But it will depend of the ability the see EW distribution from their discards. Will probably be difficult against experts.

[kgr]

Trumpace, on May 26 2005, 08:46 PM, said:

Free said: We don't know what to discard on the ♦A yet... Why?

We know that East controls diamonds. If he also controls spades we have a spade-diamond simple squeeze against East. In that case it does not matter what we drop from the dummy on the ♦A. In case west holds onto spades, we can have a spade in hand as a threat and a club in dummy as threat against West. In that case we can discard a spade from dummy on the ♦A.

Are you saying we _might_ need to keep the spade in dummy as a threat, rather than the spade in hand as the threat?

My guess is: reading the end position becomes difficult/impossible if we discard early on the ♦A. (We won't know who controls spades?).


I was not able to find this hand in Ben's thread about squeezes... Can anyone point me to the discussion of this hand?

(This hand comes from Ben's Squeeze quizzes part 2 - not discussed).

I West has ♠Jxx and you play ♦A before running the ♥ then you can not make.

Basically I try to understand how to play compound squeezes. How to know in this example if ♣ and ♠ shared threads are in North or in South hand?

[luke warm]

i probably wouldn't make this at the table cause i only "see" one way to go... take the ♦K, finesse ♠Q, play ♠A, play ♦A tossing a club, and run the hearts... i'd come down to

---

i'm playing either east for spade/diamond or east diamond, west spade, both clubs.. on last heart, toss the ♦ if east keeps the J(Q)

i'm sure there's a hole there somewhere

[Fluffy]

The hole jimmy is that if East ahs ♦+♠ there is no squeeze now because cashing ♠A destrtoyedf your comunication, remember that on a squezee with restricted count (wher you make all the tricks) at least one of the threats has to have comunication.

[kgr]

luke warm, on May 28 2005, 01:04 PM, said:

i probably wouldn't make this at the table cause i only "see" one way to go... take the ♦K, finesse ♠Q, play ♠A, play ♦A tossing a club, and run the hearts... i'd come down to

---

i'm playing either east for spade/diamond or east diamond, west spade, both clubs.. on last heart, toss the ♦ if east keeps the J(Q)

i'm sure there's a hole there somewhere

East will keep ♦J and ♠K; West will keep 3 card ♣

[kgr]

Free, on May 26 2005, 02:22 PM, said:

I think you may not cash ♦A because you don't know yet if you have to discard a ♠ or a ♣ in dummy.

This is correct:
If West give up the ♠ stop on the 2nd last ♥ then you need both the 3rd ♣ and the 3rd ♠ in dummy as a thread.

---

Now you play a ♠ to the Ace, on which East has to give up his ♣ control. On ♦A West will be squeezed in ♣ and ♠.
(And you still needed your 3rd ♣ and 3rd ♠ in dummy here).

...I wonder if any World class player would be able to find this at the table?
And probably I have to give up my hope to find a rule to play this kind compound squeeze. . It looks too complicated - more like a 'double dummy' puzzle.

[luke warm]

Fluffy, on May 28 2005, 07:59 AM, said:

The hole jimmy is that if East ahs ♦+♠ there is no squeeze now because cashing ♠A destrtoyedf your comunication, remember that on a squezee with restricted count (wher you make all the tricks) at least one of the threats has to have comunication.

right you are, thanks

[inquiry]

Trumpace, on May 26 2005, 04:46 PM, said:

I was not able to find this hand in Ben's thread about squeezes... Can anyone point me to the discussion of this hand?

Here are a few of the links on squeezes, enjoy.

introduction to squeezes

Squeezes part II

squeezes part ii quizes

Squeezes, Part III. Problems with "L",

[Trumpace]

inquiry, on May 28 2005, 04:34 PM, said:

Here are a few of the links on squeezes, enjoy.

introduction to squeezes

Squeezes part II

squeezes part ii quizes

Squeezes, Part III. Problems with "L",

Thanks Ben! Lots of good stuff.

[inquiry]

kgr, on May 28 2005, 01:44 PM, said:

Free, on May 26 2005, 02:22 PM, said:

I think you may not cash ♦A because you don't know yet if you have to discard a ♠ or a ♣ in dummy.

This is correct:
If West give up the ♠ stop on the 2nd last ♥ then you need both the 3rd ♣ and the 3rd ♠ in dummy as a thread.

---

Now you play a ♠ to the Ace, on which East has to give up his ♣ control. On ♦A West will be squeezed in ♣ and ♠.
(And you still needed your 3rd ♣ and 3rd ♠ in dummy here).

...I wonder if any World class player would be able to find this at the table?
And probably I have to give up my hope to find a rule to play this kind compound squeeze. . It looks too complicated - more like a 'double dummy' puzzle.

Yes world class and even not world class players will find this at the table, and not double dummy. The reason you can't cash the diamond ACE is clear if you think about it. One of the black suit threats will have to remain in dummy. If you throw away either black suit on the diamond ace too early, the defense can manuver so that you have only losing options (no matter which black suit you pitch). Once you realize that you need both black suits in dummy as a potential squeeze card, you will not be in a hurry to throw away one.

This is a complicated hand but it will help if you remember that all three threats can not lie in one hand when you are squeezing both opponents. So at least one black suit threat will have to remain in dummy. Let's examine the flaws. The simple squeeze is flawed simply because you can not be sure that EAST has the spade King and JACK (if all else fails you can play for a simple squeeze against EAST that will also work if WEST has Jx doubleton in spades). The double squeeze is flawed because while EAST (we assume) guards diamonds alone, neither black suit guard is isolated to WEST. But EAST can be squeezed in three suits on the run of the heart suit. He can never keep two diamonds and three clubs and two spades because it will be a five card ending. So in fact he will have to give up a black suit fairly quickly. If East gives up clubs, then you have a nice double squeeze with spades being the shared or both suit. But if he gives up spades (as in your example) then clubs becomes the double threat suit.

Belief it or not, it really isn't THAT hard. I guess I need to work more on the description and logic for you to make it seem less difficult. Thanks for the input. And yes, I have about two more large subjects to present. I will get around to it sometime in the near future --- I hope.

Ben

[kgr]

Actually the play of this hand corresponds to Pure Squeeze Type 2-C in Richard Pavlicek's artcile:
http://www.rpbridge.net/6d00.htm