[al_terego]

I decided to ask a "pubic judgment" being tired to argue with a partner.
So, the hypothesis:

#1 system is allowing frequent reasonable upgrades to NT hands
#2 2NT open is 20-22 HCP (considering upper statement become 19++ to 22 without "specialties") and you don't play Multi
#3 see "Side note" bellow diagram

---

Side note: 2NT response is systemic

Now, I want opinions about the "share of guilty" that generate this stupid contract, sole like e.g.: 90% South 10% North or 70% North 30% South, etc, and finally, eventual cast a vote e.g.: "North fault", "South fault", "both fault".

Thank you

[smerriman]

According to K&R, South has a 23 point hand and North a 7 point hand.

Have no issues with South showing it as 23; systematic 2NT is awful, but given that, North is definitely no more than an invite.

[mikeh]

I love Aces and Kings, but I love suit texture, shape and (basically the same thing as those two) trick taking potential at least as much.

The Aces and Kings definitely bring an upgrade into view, but the lack of any good spots and the sterile shape more than offset the upgrade: I don't play 20-22 (I think a 3 point range is too wide, given that responder has no way to invite 3N), but I would treat this as 22, but be prepared to accept any slam try thereafter.

The same lack of spots and shape arise in responder, so I would treat this 9 count as an indifferent 8. Provided both players see this as I do, slam in never in the picture.

Btw, I think I have been objective here, but I think you're better placed, if you want an objective check, to post just the one hand: say opener, and ask whether to open 20-22 2N or to upgrade.

By showing both hands, you make it difficult to avoid having the outcome influence the votes

[Tramticket]

Our 2NT opening is 21-22 and I would not upgrade. I really dislike that 4333 shape. Aces are great, but they are particularly suitable for a suit contract and your shape has no ruffing potential - which strongly suggests that NT may be the final strain.

The responding hand is also a 4333 pancake with no aces and each of the four honours in different suits and no intermediates (there isn't a ten between the two hands). If this hand is a systematic 2NT response for you (and many do not use 2NT as a natural response), then it is surely an absolute minimum for the bid and responder should pass the 3NT (if non-forcing - there is an argument that this should be forcing to 4NT).

[AL78]

I'm not convinced that South hand is worth an upgrade. Yes it is aces and kings, but it is also a pancake flat six loser with no high promotable spot cards. North has three honor cards that are working perfectly yet you can only guarentee nine tricks from both hands. North did the same thing, aggressively blasting slam with a pancake flat hand. Even with 32-33 HCPs combined, you usually need length somewhere to establish the small cards as tricks to make slam good. I'd say North is only worth 4NT, which South should pass, which has good chances of developing a 10th trick from hearts or spades.

South 60%, North 40%

[Cyberyeti]

I understand the wish to upgrade, the south hand is quite powerful (something like QJ, KQ10xx, xxx, xxx is 12 easy tricks most of the time and partner won't even think about inviting opposite 2N). I agree with the assessments above that it's not quite worth an upgrade, but have some sympathy. Bidding 6N with the north hand is barking mad, pass or at the most 4N is plenty, this is an 8 count and arguable closer to 7 than 9. I might conceivably use whatever stayman tool you have available as if partner has 5 hearts that changes things, and if he has 4♥432 it may make the slam feasible.

We play 22-23 for 2♣ then 2N so I don't have this issue, but we also play that 2♣ and a positive is F4N and that if responder bids 2N and subsequently bids 4N his hand needs to be invitational opposite 22-23 so the hand you give is not worth 2N.

I would say blame 80%N 20%S or something like that

[blackshoe]

You say the 2NT response is systemic, but you don't say what it shows. Doesn't really matter, though. South has said "I have a balanced hand of at least a good 22 or any 23 HCP, but not much more than that. North's jump to 6NT over 3NT is, well, I agree with cyberyeti. I'd go more 90% N, 10% S though.

[nekthen]

With Flat hands you need 34 hcp to make 6N
Mainly North

[nekthen]

With Flat hands you need 34 hcp to make 6N
Mainly North

[aawk]

Simple south should open 2nt.

After a 2♣ north should bid quantitative because north shows 23-24 HCP.

[nudnikbp]

North overbid; South did not.

[hrothgar]

I think that upgrading the South hand is reasonable

I think that North would have done better to invite with 4N

[msjennifer]

Sir,South is the first one to be blamed.He has a flat 22 HCP with (1) no 5+ card suit where the power of the 5th card can always help in developing one or more tricks in a SUIT contract .(2)Exact 22 HCP and ONLY SIX tricks in a hand with only one 4 card suit ,the lack of 9 and 10 which may help to develop a trick or two if at all in responders 4/5 card suits .All these go against opening 2C which as per your system must have 23 plus(there is absolutely nothing in this hand to upgrade it.).(3)The concentration of ACES and KINGS is helpful more in a suit game or slam. The over rating is just not acceptable.(4)The 2NT response is a poor response .What is the exact lower and upper range of it?. A hand which has 9 outright losers and miserable 9HCP desires to respond a waiting bid of 2D as the responder just can not visualise a slam on such a hand.(5)By bidding 2NT he is forcing opener to show a major suited hand at the level of 3. which is absolutely unreasonable.(6)over 2NT how is the opener to proceed if he has say a 4432 hand? (7)How could he jump to 6NT when the KNOWN points total is 23/24 plus 9= 32/33 with no source of extra tricks any where,.(7)At the most an invitational bid of 4NT is far far better.(8)I put the blame as SOUTH 20% and NORTH as 80%.THANKS.

[maartenxq]

mikeh, on 2020-May-09, 00:23, said:

I love Aces and Kings, but I love suit texture, shape and (basically the same thing as those two) trick taking potential at least as much.

The Aces and Kings definitely bring an upgrade into view, but the lack of any good spots and the sterile shape more than offset the upgrade: I don't play 20-22 (I think a 3 point range is too wide, given that responder has no way to invite 3N), but I would treat this as 22, but be prepared to accept any slam try thereafter.

The same lack of spots and shape arise in responder, so I would treat this 9 count as an indifferent 8. Provided both players see this as I do, slam in never in the picture.

Btw, I think I have been objective here, but I think you're better placed, if you want an objective check, to post just the one hand: say opener, and ask whether to open 20-22 2N or to upgrade.

By showing both hands, you make it difficult to avoid having the outcome influence the votes

My answer has been given here. 2 ♣slight overbid, 6 Nt big overbid.

Maarten Baltussen

[bluenikki]

Tramticket, on 2020-May-09, 03:01, said:

Our 2NT opening is 21-22 and I would not upgrade. I really dislike that 4333 shape. Aces are great, but they are particularly suitable for a suit contract and your shape has no ruffing potential - which strongly suggests that NT may be the final strain.

The responding hand is also a 4333 pancake with no aces and each of the four honours in different suits and no intermediates (there isn't a ten between the two hands). If this hand is a systematic 2NT response for you (and many do not use 2NT as a natural response), then it is surely an absolute minimum for the bid and responder should pass the 3NT (if non-forcing - there is an argument that this should be forcing to 4NT).

As far as I can see, there is no jack that can be added to the south hand that will bring slam to 50%. The club jack adds nothing. The diamond jack only adds 1 trick potentially.

The heart jack adds play. If both major queens lie under the jacks, a 33 heart split or a squeeze in the reds gets you home. But those are terrible odds.

So south's overbid is irrelevant.

[50lassiter]

I would have opened as 2Nt. I have 6 losers in my hand, hence, 2C is a bit of a reach. Then North should not have jumped to 6 NT, with missing 9 to 10 HCF, and his partner did not indicate a long suit, He could have invited with 4Nt. All in all, they both share the outcome of the contract.

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2020-May-10, 14:56, said:

As far as I can see, there is no jack that can be added to the south hand that will bring slam to 50%. The club jack adds nothing. The diamond jack only adds 1 trick potentially.

The heart jack adds play. If both major queens lie under the jacks, a 33 heart split or a squeeze in the reds gets you home. But those are terrible odds.

So south's overbid is irrelevant.

A bit simplistic, that's not the only hand he could hold, and he has poor intermediates, add a point in a different way and average intermediates AQ109, AQx, Axx, AKx and slam is good (finesse or a 3-3 break), but I agree S's overbid is much less heinous. Ridiculously there may actually be play for 6N with the heap N puts down (one of the hands needs 4 small spades in a 4450 for a triple squeeze, or W needs ♠109 so you can run them and then squeeze one of the opps in the reds)

[mycroft]

Assuming "2NT is systemic" means "8+, no long suit", and only forces to game:

Even 4NT says "I have enough *more than that* that opposite your signoff, we could have slam". Okay, this one's 9, but it's K K Q J non-married, no spots, in a 3433 hand that opener didn't look for a major. The strong hand heard you, and bid 3NT. What else do you have? 6NT is so much of an overbid that it says "partner I don't think you can evaluate strong hands."

If 2NT is the really old-fashioned negative, then yeah, we have a *great* aceless negative. But I don't think it does. And it's still only a 4NT call.

I don't disagree with the upgrade out of 2NT with "Aces and spaces" (okay, AKs and spaces :-) but I don't agree with it either - it's 4333 too, and nary even a Ten to go with. Having upgraded it, it's definitely a minimum, and "let's get all the matchpoints for 3NT even if we have a 4=4 spade fit" seems right.

[bluenikki]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-11, 10:53, said:

A bit simplistic, that's not the only hand he could hold, and he has poor intermediates, add a point in a different way and average intermediates AQ109, AQx, Axx, AKx and slam is good (finesse or a 3-3 break), but I agree S's overbid is much less heinous. Ridiculously there may actually be play for 6N with the heap N puts down (one of the hands needs 4 small spades in a 4450 for a triple squeeze, or W needs ♠109 so you can run them and then squeeze one of the opps in the reds)

For that matter, you can construct many 22-pt hands that would be cold for 6NT opposite that junkpile.

But that's not the point. Or are you suggesting that the present hand with an added jack should also open only 2NT?

Sure the south opening was an overbid. But that contributed 0% to the result.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,
#1 if you upgrade 19HCP into the 20-22 range, it makes sense to do some upgrades on 22HCP hands.
usually 3 point ranges for opening bids are frowened upon, you dont have a way to ask, do you have mid range?
#2 I dont understand the 6NT bid, 4NT as some kind of quantitative invite seems ok, ..., depending on the meaning
of 2NT, but 6NT? And if 6NT backfired, I would not go into discussion mode.

With kind regards
Marlowe