[antonylee]

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IMPs (but feel free to comment if scoring matters).
Trick 1 goes ♣3(4th best) ♥2 ♣K ♣2. What do you return and why?

[AL78]

antonylee, on 2020-May-03, 12:36, said:

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IMPs (but feel free to comment if scoring matters).
Trick 1 goes ♣3(4th best) ♥2 ♣K ♣2. What do you return and why?

♣T, top of internal sequence, hope to establish four club tricks plus a couple outside, hope that declarer finesses into my stiff king.

No doubt this is completely wrong, otherwise it wouldn't be posted here.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2020-May-05, 09:04, said:

♣T, top of internal sequence, hope to establish four club tricks plus a couple outside, hope that declarer finesses into my stiff king.

No doubt this is completely wrong, otherwise it wouldn't be posted here.

the issue is how partner will interpret it, he is going to be worried that you have K10x, K109 or K109x and that you're setting declarer up lots of tricks, so may not play a third club.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-05, 09:21, said:

the issue is how partner will interpret it, he is going to be worried that you have K10x, K109 or K109x and that you're setting declarer up lots of tricks, so may not play a third club.

True, and I did think about that, but if I hold KTx or KT9, and partner really has led 4th best, that would put declarer with six clubs, whilst not impossible, unlikely, although I am more familiar with Acol than 2/1 which changes things. In Acol, with six clubs, four spades and 10-12 HCP, responder might decide to respond 2♣ planning to bid the spades next time, or bid 2NT if opener bids diamonds. In any case, if from partner's perspective playing another club does set up a second club trick for declarer, then it almost certainly isn't going down, so partner has to hope that declarer only has one stop. The only other option I can see is hoping declarer has a poor spade suit and we can take three spade tricks plus one in either red suit.

I still think that attacking clubs is the only way 2NT is going down if it can go down, so I am always returning a club. I'm inclined to the ten because the only other alternative would be to lead the four, and that might work out bacdly, if declarer plays low partner wins the second round and can't play a third round from Qx into AJ .

[KingCovert]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-05, 09:21, said:

the issue is how partner will interpret it, he is going to be worried that you have K10x, K109 or K109x and that you're setting declarer up lots of tricks, so may not play a third club.

I've spent over 30 minutes trying to write this comment as diplomatically as possible, but, I'm really just struggling. So I'm simply going to quit on being diplomatic.

I don't really understand why you think only one defender is capable of considering an unexpected void, or why only defender here is able to count to 13, or why only one defender is capable of considering declarer's club length. The lead was the 3♣, it's not exactly an ambiguous lead with respect to the length considerations.

The T♣ return establishes the line of attack for the defenders, a line that the opening leader would do well to respect given that they could have no idea if diamonds are running for 6 tricks.

Second guessing partner's judgement in situations like this is not only an insult to partner, but, it's simply going to result in a slew of mis-defended hands.

[Cyberyeti]

KingCovert, on 2020-May-05, 10:26, said:

I've spent over 30 minutes trying to write this comment as diplomatically as possible, but, I'm really just struggling. So I'm simply going to quit on being diplomatic.

I don't really understand why you think only one defender is capable of considering an unexpected void, or why only defender here is able to count to 13, or why only one defender is capable of considering declarer's club length. The lead was the 3♣, it's not exactly an ambiguous lead with respect to the length considerations.

The T♣ return establishes the line of attack for the defenders, a line that the opening leader would do well to respect given that they could have no idea if diamonds are running for 6 tricks.

Second guessing partner's judgement in situations like this is not only an insult to partner, but, it's simply going to result in a slew of mis-defended hands.

You know partner's length (4), he doesn't know yours, you want to play the card that disambiguates your holding the best. On this auction, from partner's PoV declarer could have 5 (or even 6 if just sub 2/1) clubs. I'm not clear what the best return is to accomplish this, it may well be the 10, but a 4th highest 8 is also in the equation.

[KingCovert]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-May-05, 10:37, said:

You know partner's length (4), he doesn't know yours, you want to play the card that disambiguates your holding the best. On this auction, from partner's PoV declarer could have 5 (or even 6 if just sub 2/1) clubs. I'm not clear what the best return is to accomplish this, it may well be the 10, but a 4th highest 8 is also in the equation.

You're probably never going to give exact count in this situation. But, returning the T♣ has given clear attitude on whether you'd like to attack this suit. It's simply enough. In the same way that, really, any club is enough. But, the T♣ is the best, and clearest, way to collect the suit.

[pescetom]

I agree with KingCovert. But then (with equal abandon of diplomacy) I consider East's bidding nuts so I am probably not on the same planet.

[Cyberyeti]

KingCovert, on 2020-May-05, 10:56, said:

You're probably never going to give exact count in this situation. But, returning the T♣ has given clear attitude on whether you'd like to attack this suit. It's simply enough. In the same way that, really, any club is enough. But, the T♣ is the best, and clearest, way to collect the suit.

Given the sorts of hand partner is likely to hold, I can't see him returning anything but a club when he gets in unless declarer has a stiff ♥A, if a spade was right, you'd likely have played one. Admittedly any declarer with a brain would be concealing the ♣2 if he had 6, so partner at least knows you have 4 or 5 when he plays it.

[antonylee]

I held xxx AJx J9x A763 over declarer. When partner returned the ♣T covered by the J, I was worried that declarer had the 8 and somewhat half-heartedly tried to cut off declarer's communications by returning a diamond. Certainly not the best play, but I wonder if partner could have returned e.g. the 8 -- given that declarer wasn't able to conceal the 2 at trick 1, perhaps him playing the jack would suggest having neither the T nor the 9.

[Cyberyeti]

antonylee, on 2020-May-09, 04:27, said:

I held xxx AJx J9x A763 over declarer. When partner returned the ♣T covered by the J, I was worried that declarer had the 8 and somewhat half-heartedly tried to cut off declarer's communications by returning a diamond. Certainly not the best play, but I wonder if partner could have returned e.g. the 8 -- given that declarer wasn't able to conceal the 2 at trick 1, perhaps him playing the jack would suggest having neither the T nor the 9.

TBF the 8 would work well here as it's a return that has to be fourth highest if you trust declarer at all. If you were going to cut comms, a heart would have been the best bet to take out the side entry, and you're not dead yet.

I think a club is best though.

[mikeh]

We’re lucky to hold the 1098(x).

This makes the 8 easy, unlike say K109xx where the location of the 8 makes a big difference.

We’re all, I think, used to using the rule of 11 when in 3rd seat, after partner’s 4th best lead. However, one r3ason for returning the original 4th best is to allow partner, the opening leader, to also use that rule.

When we return the 8, we either have K8x or one of KJ108, KJ98, or K1098 (all possibly/probably with an x).

No way should partner think we’re setting up declare’s 6 card club suit, so it’s obvious we have good clubs. It does declarer no good to duck on most hands, and once he plays an honour, it’s trivial for North to win and return one.

Fortunately for us, there’s no way partner can go wrong. If partner has AJxx, and declarer plays the Queen, the rule of 11 tells partner we now have all good clubs. Same if he plays the J.

So the 8 is clearly correct.

If we had K109xx, we’d like to,play the 10 when partner has AJxx or AQxx, or A8xx and 4th best otherwise. Note that it is 7nsafe to assume that we have a sure diamond entry. Picture declarer with Axxx Ax xxx QJxx

[gszes]

Ambiguity is the key problem here. Does the return of the 8 really mean low from an honor here? We might all too easily decide a club is the best return at the slight risk of setting up declarer's six card suit. With K82 as an original holding would I not return the 8? With the KT2 I should return the 2. This means a return of the T should always show the 9 and we can help clarify our holding on the next club (which rates to be safe for partner to return).