[cencio]

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West declare

[HardVector]

cencio, on 2019-July-24, 16:10, said:

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West declare

You didn't give any vulnerability, but on this hand, I don't think it matters. South's bidding is easier if NS is vulnerable and north is disciplined.

1c-1h-p-1s-p-2h-p-3d-p-?

I'd probably pass here, but I'm a pessimist. I think 5d depends on perfect cards and is a bit lucky.

[helene_t]

Depends on your agreements about responding to overcalls. Assuming that 1♠ by S would be nonforcing, they might bid
1♥-2♠
3♦-3♠
4♥-pass

but it is too easy when seeing all four hands. In practice I might do something less succesful, for example bidding 3NT instead of 4♥ with the North hand.

[dsLawsd]

Hard to say as guessing is involved- but one sequence would be to bid 4♦ and then pass over 4♥ once it is seen that the heart queen is a valuable, working card opposite the expected 6-4 hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Also depends where you are, whether W opens 1♣ or 1N.

It's easy over 1N and if you play a 2 suited defence, so that a 2♥ overcall followed by 3♦ is clearly 6-4.

[nige1]

Cencio
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
South can make a lucky 6♥ but it's hard enough to contrive a plausible auction to 4♥by North.

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[miamijd]

Doesn't seem particularly hard. West opens 1C and then:

1H 2S(1)
3H 4H

(1) 1S in most methods is NF and only shows 9+ or so. 2S is non-forcing but highly invitational, generally showing 14+ or so and a good six-bagger.

And no, 6H is not cold. A diamond lead sets it two tricks.

Cheers,
Mike

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2019-July-25, 12:00, said:

Doesn't seem particularly hard. West opens 1C and then:

1H 2S(1)
3H 4H

(1) 1S in most methods is NF and only shows 9+ or so. 2S is non-forcing but highly invitational, generally showing 14+ or so and a good six-bagger.

And no, 6H is not cold. A diamond lead sets it two tricks.

Cheers,
Mike

He never claimed 6♥(N) was cold, he claimed it was cold if played by south.

Many people play 2♠ as fit so your method is far from universal.

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-25, 13:21, said:

He never claimed 6♥(N) was cold, he claimed it was cold if played by south.

Many people play 2♠ as fit so your method is far from universal.

Not sure I know anyone that plays a jump to 2S over a 1H overcall as a fit jump. Maybe that's a British thing? But what's the point of the bid? If you have a fit in hearts with a good hand, just cue-bid to show a limit raise or better and go from there. Why do you need to go trying to find another fit? Fit jumps are only really useful in response to 1 of a minor.

You need a bid that shows a good hand with spades.

Cheers,
Mike

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2019-July-25, 17:15, said:

Not sure I know anyone that plays a jump to 2S over a 1H overcall as a fit jump. Maybe that's a British thing? But what's the point of the bid? If you have a fit in hearts with a good hand, just cue-bid to show a limit raise or better and go from there. Why do you need to go trying to find another fit? Fit jumps are only really useful in response to 1 of a minor.

You need a bid that shows a good hand with spades.

Cheers,
Mike

We actually don't because our overcalls are sounder than most so 1♠ is forcing (we weak jump on air). The reason for playing 2♠ as fit is to allow partner to judge when opener rebids an unpleasantly large number of clubs. KJxxx, Kxxx, xxx, x would be typical so that partner knows whether to bid over 4 or 5♣.

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 02:32, said:

We actually don't because our overcalls are sounder than most so 1♠ is forcing (we weak jump on air). The reason for playing 2♠ as fit is to allow partner to judge when opener rebids an unpleasantly large number of clubs. KJxxx, Kxxx, xxx, x would be typical so that partner knows whether to bid over 4 or 5♣.

If you play 1S as forcing, then you can indeed use 2S as "something else." The modern style is to play that after an overcall, only a cue-bid is forcing.

Cheers,
mike

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2019-July-26, 02:36, said:

If you play 1S as forcing, then you can indeed use 2S as "something else." The modern style is to play that after an overcall, only a cue-bid is forcing.

Cheers,
mike

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 03:45, said:

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

For me it's constructive and does not deny invitational values, but NF. Only the cue is forcing.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2019-July-26, 04:39, said:

For me it's constructive and does not deny invitational values, but NF. Only the cue is forcing.

Wow so (1♣)-1♠-(P)-2♣-(5♣) and you may never get to bid your heart suit with just shy of a 3♥ bid (or you'll bid it and find you have a choice of 5/6-1 spade fit or 5/6-0 heart fit at the 5 level).

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 05:33, said:

Wow so (1♣)-1♠-(P)-2♣-(5♣) and you may never get to bid your heart suit with just shy of a 3♥ bid (or you'll bid it and find you have a choice of 5/6-1 spade fit or 5/6-0 heart fit at the 5 level).

It doesn't look like it will necessarily be a tragedy, in any case it's easy to construct a non-ideal auction for any agreement.
This agreement I think is pretty standard, I was taught it as part of basic 2/1 and I see that Bridge World Standard 2017 says much the same too:

C. After Our Suit Overcall of a One-Bid
After our simple overcall of a one-bid:
(a) A new-suit bid by an unpassed advancer is natural and nonforcing, constructive if an advance of a two-level overcall. (Then: a cue-bid by intervenor is artificial and neither shows nor denies a primary fit for advancer's suit.) A new-suit jump is invitational.
(b) A cue-bid may be either a strong raise or a prelude to a forcing bid in a new suit (but a passed-hand cue-bid guarantees a fit for intervenor's suit). A jump cue-bid is a mixed (i.e., semipreemptive) raise that shows at least one defensive trick.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 03:45, said:

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

Transfers work well here:
1♣-1♠-2♣ = diamonds
1♣-1♠-2♦ = hearts
1♣-1♠-2♥ = invitational spade raise (UCB type)
1♣-1♠-2♠ = Competing

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 03:45, said:

Really ? I'm not sure I know anybody who would play (1♣)-1♠-2♥ as NF

You misunderstood me. I don't mean NF by responder. I mean NF by advancer.

1C (1S) 2H

Of course this is forcing.

(1C) 1S pass 2H

The modern trend in the USA is to play this non-forcing. The same goes for

(1C) 1H pass 1S

Cheers,
Mike

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2019-July-26, 13:18, said:

You misunderstood me. I don't mean NF by responder. I mean NF by advancer.

1C (1S) 2H

Of course this is forcing.

(1C) 1S pass 2H

The modern trend in the USA is to play this non-forcing. The same goes for

(1C) 1H pass 1S

Cheers,
Mike

No I didn't misunderstand you, only the 1♣ is in brackets in my post, I also meant 1♣-1♠-P-2♥, you make constructive bidding almost impossible if opener barrages if you can't start with 2♥ forcing. I can see why you might want the 1 level auction to be NF, but a 2/1 is going to promise good values, so unless you overcall on absolute manure playing it forcing seems better.

[miamijd]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-July-26, 14:14, said:

No I didn't misunderstand you, only the 1♣ is in brackets in my post, I also meant 1♣-1♠-P-2♥, you make constructive bidding almost impossible if opener barrages if you can't start with 2♥ forcing. I can see why you might want the 1 level auction to be NF, but a 2/1 is going to promise good values, so unless you overcall on absolute manure playing it forcing seems better.

The modern trend is decidedly non-forcing. There are some top-level players that still play one level responses to overcalls as forcing (although the majority play those non-forcing, too), but very few play 2-level responses to overcalls as forcing. If a 2-level response is forcing, then what do you do here:

(1C) 1S p ??

x xxx AKxxxx xxx

Don't you want to be able to bid 2D and have partner pass? Sure you do. If partner has to bid on with even a halfway decent overcall like:

AKxxx Qxx x QTxx

you are going to be in deep doo-doo pretty quickly.

Cheers,
Mike

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2019-July-26, 16:18, said:

The modern trend is decidedly non-forcing. There are some top-level players that still play one level responses to overcalls as forcing (although the majority play those non-forcing, too), but very few play 2-level responses to overcalls as forcing. If a 2-level response is forcing, then what do you do here:

(1C) 1S p ??

x xxx AKxxxx xxx

Don't you want to be able to bid 2D and have partner pass? Sure you do. If partner has to bid on with even a halfway decent overcall like:

AKxxx Qxx x QTxx

you are going to be in deep doo-doo pretty quickly.

Cheers,
Mike

I bid 1N, he bids 2♣ (particularly if the club is potentially short) and I bid 2♦ end of auction no issues. If the club is not potentially short we might play a filthy 1N but you're probably not making 2♦ either.