[straube]

I traded the ability to show 6D/4C and 4D/6C for some other things and now trying to get this back.

1N-2S, 2N-3D shows 5D/5C

What if it also handled 4D/6C? Adam and Sieong are able to sort out 4M/6m from 5M/5m from the entry point of 3D.

1N-2S, 2N-3D

............................3H-3D, not 3C
..................................3S-4D/6C (asks about mesh)
.............................................3N-suggests contract
...................................3N-5D/5C, COG
...................................4D-sets diamonds
............................3S-3C
...................................3N-offer, usually 5D/5C
...................................4C-sets clubs
............................3N-4522 or very discouraging
............................4C-4 clubs
............................4D-4 diamonds

What I don't like about this is sometimes we have committed to what may only be a 4/4 diamond fit. Any suggestions?

and then for 6D/4C I have available

1N-2N,
3m-
..........4H-2-1-6-4
..........4S-1-2-6-4

which gives up 3N

[straube]

Could just have 3D be the entry for all 5m/5m and 6m/4m

3H-3C
.....3S-6D/4C
.....3N-5D/5C
3S-3D, not 3C
.....3N-4D/6C or 5D/5C
3N-4522 or strong NT preference
4C-4C
4D-4D

This will get us to 4-4 minor fits but that may be best for slam anyway

It's simpler than the other. Thoughts?

I expect the criticism would be that opener's 3M could be used to show concentration in a major which would help responder evaluate whether 3N or 5m would be better. Just how important is that?

[nullve]

straube, on 2019-April-07, 09:25, said:

I traded the ability to show 6D/4C and 4D/6C for some other things and now trying to get this back.

1N-2S, 2N-3D shows 5D/5C

What if it also handled 4D/6C?

In the version of GAR described in 'Il Sistema Bocchi-Duboin', 3♦ covers not only 6-4 and 5-5, but also 6-5 and probably, although it's not explicitly stated, 7-4 and nore extreme shapes as well. It appears that over the 3♥ relay,

3♠ includes 5-5
3N includes MIN, 6-4/6-5
4♣ includes MAX, 6-4/6-5, low singleton/void
4♦ includes MAX, 6-4/6-5, high singleton/void,

where I've used 'includes' instead of '=' because I have no idea what one is supposed to do even with 7-4.

[straube]

Sounds like they don't include 4-6 in that.

What does their 3D-3S bid mean?

[nullve]

straube, on 2019-April-07, 13:30, said:

Sounds like they don't include 4-6 in that.

What does their 3D-3S bid mean?

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. GAR only applies in GF situations where a hand has shown 5+x4+y. Then, as part of their version of GAR, at least as long as 5x5y is consistent with the bidding so far,

3♦ includes 5x5y, 6x4y and 6x5y (but not 4x6y, of course)
...3♥ = relay
......3♠ includes 5x5y
......3N includes MIN, 6x4y/6x5y
......4♣ includes MAX, 6x4y/6x5y, low singleton/void
......4♦ includes MAX, 6x4y/6x5y, low singleton/void
...3♠+: presumably NAT.

[straube]

Thanks. What they do is a little similar to what Adam and Sieong do to separate 4M/6+m from 5+M/5+m

3D can be either
.....3H-3-cd support for the major
..........3S-confirmas 5/5 (fit)
..........3N-4M6m, willing to play 3N
..........4m-4M6m, slamming
.....3S-4-cd support for the major, agrees fit
.....3N-suggests a contract

[nullve]

straube, on 2019-April-07, 14:52, said:

Thanks. What they do is a little similar to what Adam and Sieong do to separate 4M/6+m from 5+M/5+m

3D can be either
.....3H-3-cd support for the major
..........3S-confirmas 5/5 (fit)
..........3N-4M6m, willing to play 3N
..........4m-4M6m, slamming
.....3S-4-cd support for the major, agrees fit
.....3N-suggests a contract

Yes. I thought 3N and 4m only promised 5+ m (I'm looking at the July 2009 notes), but I guess they would

* use Stayman with 4M5m22/4M315/4405
* respond 3♦ with 4M351/4450
* respond 3M with 4M0(54)/4M1(53)?

[straube]

I've been looking at hands and was a little surprised how often 3N was the best contract. This is for 4/6+, 5+/5+ and 6+/4 minor suit hands that (also) don't have a major suit fragment.

So mandating that 1246 (for example) has to be shown beyond the point of 3N seems wrong.

I've also been thinking that awm likely uses opener's 3M rebids to show concentration of strength...presumably to probe for 3N or to see how the hands fit.

I've come up with...

3D-10+m suit cards
.....3H-asks 3N with HA or HK
..........3N-HA or HK, not slamming
..........4C-4/6
..........4D-5/5
..........4H-1264
..........4S-2164
.....3S-asks 3N with SA or SK
..........3N-SA or SK, not slamming
.....3N-strong preference, usually length or double stopped majors
..........4C-4/6, slamming
..........4D-5/5, slamming
..........4H-1264, slamming
..........4S-2164, slamming

So opener's 3N rebid is the most common action. I could gain space by switching the 3H and 3N rebids but that is more to memorize.

In the event that opener has a clear preference for a minor suit contract (like holding xxx in a major), he could temporize by bidding that (or the other) major in the hope of getting responder to pattern. If instead responder rebids 3N he will know that responder is not slamming and has a card in the specified major suit. Maybe a natural fit-finding auction would follow.

Any thoughts?

[straube]

Thinking now to treat slam invitational 6m/4m as single-suited. I can set trump quickly and key card. I know this gives up on the 4-cd suit.

But if I do this there's less pressure on the 3D bid. It will be any GF strength 5/5 and minimum GF strengths 6m/4m. I'll get to 3N more often and when responder does something that sounds slammish, it will be a 5/5.

It would be nice to avoid memorizing another relay structure here.

[straube]

Settled on a very natural method. After 1N-2S, 2N-3D

3M-concentration of values, probe for 3N
3N-both majors well stopped
4m-3+m, ostensibly a preference

So I have the problem of getting to the best minor suit fit and avoiding a 4-3 fit.

If opener is the first to bid 4C, responder needs to immediately warn about 6D/4C by bidding 4D. After doing so, responder would offer a choice later by bidding 5C or 6C.
If clubs are acceptable (for example responder is 5/5 or 4/6) then responder would bypass 4D and cue shortness or simply raise to game.

If responder is the first to bid 4C, this shows a preference (4/6 or 5/6). It's probably simplest if opener establishes that diamonds will be trump by bidding 4D immediately although
opener will always be able to correct to diamonds at any level. Regardless, bids of 4M show aces by opener and shortness by responder.

If opener is the first to bid 4D, bids of 4M are shortness by responder and the spade ace by opener. Later, opener may give a courtesy bid of clubs if willing to play there (for example 3/2 in the minors) or responder may
bid clubs to show a preference (6 clubs)

If responder is the first to bid 4D, bids of 4M are aces by opener and spade shortness by responder. Later, opener may establish clubs by bidding them (he knows responder has 6D) or responder will offer clubs as a
courtesy bid.

Finally, if responder has equal preference (5/5) and is first to bypass 3N, he should just show major suit shortness and let opener pick the minor.

4N to play would often be in the picture.

I think this scheme is pretty straightforward, avoids a relay and keeps 3N in the picture.