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2C opening - would you be happy with this auction

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 18:06

Dear all

I had no idea about how to bid this in a recent IMPs tourney. I figured I had 9(.5) tricks and enough to justify 2C but wasnt sure how happy anyone else would be. How else could you bid and force this to ensure you ended in the right game (or even slam). Which was 5C. Would you be upset in duplicate with another table bidding this

The alternative sequences started 1H-P-1S-P-?

regards P



PS I was in serious need of points having made a miss click cue bid on an earlier hand causing me to miss an easy game and also missing another game by only bidding to 3. So I needed to be less cautious
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#2 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 18:37

View Postthepossum, on 2019-February-20, 18:06, said:

Dear all

I had no idea about how to bid this in a recent IMPs tourney. I figured I had 9(.5) tricks and enough to justify 2C but wasnt sure how happy anyone else would be. How else could you bid and force this to ensure you ended in the right game (or even slam). Which was 5C. Would you be upset in duplicate with another table bidding this

regards P



PS I was in serious need of points having made a miss click cue bid on an earlier hand causing me to miss an easy game and also missing another game by only bidding to 3. So I needed to be less cautious



You are no where close to a 2C* opening. It is supposed to be strong and forcing.

If they bid 4S next, do you feel that you can defeat 4S?


You should open 1H and you are likely be able to show both suits if hearts are not raised.
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#3 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 18:50

View Postspotlight7, on 2019-February-20, 18:37, said:

You are no where close to a 2C* opening. It is supposed to be strong and forcing.

If they bid 4S next, do you feel that you can defeat 4S?


You should open 1H and you are likely be able to show both suits if hearts are not raised.


My bid is strong and forcing and I thought my hand is enough to force to game. One of the requirements for 2C is having 9 tricks. I have 9 in either clubs or hearts and a self-sufficient club suit no? I know there is a small risk of up to 2 down doubled vulnerable

You need to force surely and not risk being passed at 2 level

I dont know what I would have bid after 4S, probably passed. It would have gone down 2. The hand has some defensive credentials??

Hearts doesnt get to game (-1) and NT is a no hoper

I accept it is maybe at the more questionnable end of game force bids but ....
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#4 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 18:59

2 wouldn't have even crossed my mind here. Think about how the auction is likely to go (against competent opponents). They have a huge fit in either diamonds or spades, and will be competing strongly. It is highly probable the next time you get to bid, you'll be at least at the 4 level if not higher, and have yet to even show either of your two suits.

Your partner will also have no idea what is going on; neither of you will be in position to know whether you want to be doubling, bidding game, or bidding slam.

Conversely, consider what happens if you open 1. It is guaranteed this will not be passed out (how can nobody bid 1 at least?), and then you can bid and rebid clubs until your partner gets the message.

You got very lucky you were able to find a reasonable contract.

This is also why it's commonly advised not to open 2 with two suiters even with 22+ points.
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#5 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 19:16

I would not even contemplate 2. Not close.

Open 1.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
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#6 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 19:23

So how do I show a hand like that after 1H-P-1S

If I feel there is good chance of game

regards P
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#7 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 19:28

Rebid 2. If that gets passed out - which is still virtually impossible - then I can't see how you can make enough tricks for game.

(And of course, that auction is highly unlikely to begin with).
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#8 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 20:36

Hi all

Here is the full hand. How would competent opps have interfered after 1H and how would a better south than me have approached this auction. I understand that everyone will say this is GiB's limitations. Note there was one other south (an "expert") who bid the exact same auction as me so I didnt feel totally lucky

However I genuinely feel on all assessments that my hand is stronger than everyone is saying and that it is (almost) worthy of 2C on the distributional 9 trick criteria, if not points. It also only has 3 losers

Anyway, sometimes you have to take a risk in tourneys to get some IMPs (especially after two unlucky hands) and I feel this was legitimate without exagerrating the strength of my hand "grossly"

regards P


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#9 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 22:29

So in summary, you got a lucky distribution where the opponents couldn't compete much, were able to show both your suits - and still got to the wrong contract!

5 goes down on anything but a 3-3 heart split - meaning it's a net loss at IMPs - opening 1 would have gotten you to the right spot.

But yes, if you need a big IMP swing, bidding and making a poor game is the only way to catch up.

(And again, I'm not saying it's not a good hand. Simply that two suited hands are better described by bidding your suits, even if you had over 20 points).
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#10 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 23:16

Fair enough

However a large amount of the variance in bridge is chance. Things tend to average out over time. There are things you can do to sway chance your way and picking the right hand when nobody else picks it is part of bridge

Occasionally someone on these forums will give me credit for a good score based upon good reasoning rather than sour grapes

This place is full of self appointed experts, probably mostly average players who think because this is the n/b forum that people asking things or posting things don't know what they are doing, talking about or how to play the game

If I had world class or expert against my name, or was a famous player, or someone with thousands of points everyone would be grovelling at the quality of the bid

Do you know how many so called expert and world class players were languishing on 2C+3
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#11 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2019-February-20, 23:51

:lol:
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#12 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 02:19

In England, it would be illegal (at levels 2, 4 or 5) to open this as 2, if you describe it as strong. [The blue book requires 16+ HCPs or 12+ HCPs and 5+ controls, counting ace as two and king as one].

Apart from being illegal, it is very poor bridge in my opinion. Two-suited hands are always difficult to handle if you start with 2 - it is difficult to get across the shape of the hand at a low level. Starting low gives you room to show your shape. Further, a two-club opening shows both playing strength (which your hand has) and defensive strength (which you lack). I believe that a 2 opening should usually deliver a minimum of seven controls. Open 1 and if you are feeling very frisky you might rebid 3 (although I would probably choose 2).

As it is, the opponents hold as many combined points as you do. Did you make 5? It looks as if it probably should, even on a trump lead (you are lucky that both clubs and hearts are breaking favourably).
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#13 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 02:40

If you need swings there are better ways to do so then psyching a 2 opening.

Few quick comments:

1. Partner is going to figure you EITHER for a hand with good defense or one that is able to force game (near force game) ABSENT a fit. This hand has neither and things have the potential to go very wrong if there is a competitive auction.

2. Absent a fit, you're going to end up in either 3N/4/5, none of which will play well

3. Your bid is illegal in a bunch of jurisdiction

4. Aren't you the one who always complains about psyches?

Its fine if you want to screw around and open 2!C.
It might even work out and, if you are consciously rolling the dice, then fine.

However, if your attitude is "I made a bad bid hoping to get lucky" then there isn't much to talk about.
Alderaan delenda est
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#14 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 03:51

By the way, it's at least 8 1/2 quick tricks in a major, or 9 1/2 for a minor. QUICK tricks. The clubs are quick, the hearts are not. Another way to think of it, is to imagine your partner hates your suit and puts it in 3n, how many tricks are you good for? The answer with this hand is 6. Open 1h.
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 05:13

View PostTramticket, on 2019-February-21, 02:19, said:

In England, it would be illegal (at levels 2, 4 or 5) to open this as 2, if you describe it as strong. [The blue book requires 16+ HCPs or 12+ HCPs and 5+ controls, counting ace as two and king as one].


Well, it’s illegal if you just say “strong” but not if you describe what it is. But I guess you can get away with anything if you just say it was a psyche.
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 15:17

View PostVampyr, on 2019-February-21, 05:14, said:

Well, it’s illegal if you just say “strong” but not if you describe what it is. But I guess you can get away with anything if you just say it was a psyche.


I doubt you can get away with saying that it was a psyche if it was also described/alerted/announced as strong and artificial.
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#17 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 15:30

View PostVampyr, on 2019-February-21, 05:14, said:

Well, it’s illegal if you just say “strong” but not if you describe what it is. But I guess you can get away with anything if you just say it was a psyche.


Yes, you need to correctly alert / announce, but even the non-strong options are limited depending upon the level. It would be fine, for instance, to open a precision 2C and announce as "intermediate" at any level. If you frequently "psyche" then you will have an implied illegal agreement.
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#18 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2019-February-21, 19:21

View Postthepossum, on 2019-February-20, 23:16, said:

Fair enough

However a large amount of the variance in bridge is chance. Things tend to average out over time. There are things you can do to sway chance your way and picking the right hand when nobody else picks it is part of bridge

Occasionally someone on these forums will give me credit for a good score based upon good reasoning rather than sour grapes

This place is full of self appointed experts, probably mostly average players who think because this is the n/b forum that people asking things or posting things don't know what they are doing, talking about or how to play the game

If I had world class or expert against my name, or was a famous player, or someone with thousands of points everyone would be grovelling at the quality of the bid

Do you know how many so called expert and world class players were languishing on 2C+3



Put WC beside your name and repost the same comments. You are very unlikely to have anyone grovel. They will tend to post the same comments.
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#19 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-February-22, 03:29

View Postthepossum, on 2019-February-20, 23:16, said:


However a large amount of the variance in bridge is chance. Things tend to average out over time. There are things you can do to sway chance your way and picking the right hand when nobody else picks it is part of bridge



Possum, please consider that over the past two weeks you have also posted the following

Quote

People just seem to bid what they like which basically totally misleads the Bot and gives an unfair advantage to those players


Quote

The other aspect of bidding though which many players seem to forget (reading various sites and observing play) is that it is about accurate communication to opponents and partner. If a convention says balanced or semi balanced without singleton except in very rare cases it could qualify as a misleading or unusual bid if not alerted or on the CC

And with a 4531 hand there is a perfectly acceptable and accurate major bid available with a reverse. You can also reverse minor major with a 4441 with 20 points and also 15-17

I'm concerned that many in the game don't seem to care about this anymore


To me, at least, it feels that you have a bunch of very strongly held but inconsistent views.
To the extent that there is a common theme, if feels as if it is something like

"I believe foo.
People who don't believe the same are evil"

Even when people point out that your assertions are factual incorrect, you don't ever acknowledge that you were wrong or show any signs of change.
You simply move on to some new claim.
Alderaan delenda est
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#20 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-February-22, 12:13

View Posthrothgar, on 2019-February-22, 03:29, said:

Possum, please consider that over the past two weeks you have also posted the following





To me, at least, it feels that you have a bunch of very strongly held but inconsistent views.
To the extent that there is a common theme, if feels as if it is something like

"I believe foo.
People who don't believe the same are evil"

Even when people point out that your assertions are factual incorrect, you don't ever acknowledge that you were wrong or show any signs of change.
You simply move on to some new claim.


Let me see: OP exhibits the following characteristics (at least, as I see it):

a) makes posts that purport to seek advice or constructive criticism

b) makes posts denigrating and insulting those who provide advise or constructive criticism

c) never once acknowledges that he may be in error....see point (b)

d) eventually stops posting on the thread, and

e) begins another thread with the same approach



Repeat ad nauseam


Now, is there a term for people like that?

And as a bonus question, is there a saying for how one should engage or not engage with people like that?

DFTT

I formed my opinion of what he was a long time ago, and have seen nothing that causes me to re-evaluate.
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