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2C opening - would you be happy with this auction

#21 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2019-February-22, 12:32

Possum, I’m puzzled by your pushback.

You first commented that, “I had no idea about how to bid this in a recent IMPs tourney,” was presumably looking for others’ opinions. Yet, when opinions were offered that are in direct conflict with your own “good reasoning” and your “quality bid,” you throw a hissy fit.
Your post seems to be some sort of grope for the admiration others; a pat on the back for your brilliance. If it were deserved, believe me, it would be immediately forthcoming. Don’t hold your breath.

Rather than looking deeper into the reasons and logic behind those viewpoints that differed from your own, you resorted to accusations of:
1. “sour grapes,”
2. “self-appointed experts,” and
3. “average players.”

Your “everyone would be groveling at the quality of the bid” claim exhibits astounding hubris. Take a step back, dude. You might consider doing your own research in an attempt to understand why your thinking differs so dramatically with that of others. It may open your eyes to personal blind spots.

Finally, this hand was posted on Bridgewinners as a bidding problem a day ago. There are currently 30 responses, some from very good players. The results are currently unanimous. A few of the comments (e.g. “are you serious?”) are telling.

Google is a wonderful research tool. Use it.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
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#22 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-19, 18:11

Sorry everyone

Just found this post browsing for my Bridgebase name in Google

You get me wrong. I'm not like that at all

Sorry if we all got started on the wrong foot

regards Possum :)

EDIT, now I've forgotten what I was really looking for
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#23 User is offline   haka9 

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Posted 2020-October-25, 13:37

View Postthepossum, on 2019-February-20, 18:06, said:

Dear all

I had no idea about how to bid this in a recent IMPs tourney. I figured I had 9(.5) tricks and enough to justify 2C but wasnt sure how happy anyone else would be. How else could you bid and force this to ensure you ended in the right game (or even slam). Which was 5C. Would you be upset in duplicate with another table bidding this

The alternative sequences started 1H-P-1S-P-?

regards P

PS I was in serious need of points having made a miss click cue bid on an earlier hand causing me to miss an easy game and also missing another game by only bidding to 3. So I needed to be less cautious

I would'nt open with 2 : (almost) GF or 22-24 hcp. 1 - p - 1 - p - 3 and so on.
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#24 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-25, 16:11

View Posthaka9, on 2020-October-25, 13:37, said:

I would'nt open with 2 : (almost) GF or 22-24 hcp. 1 - p - 1 - p - 3 and so on.


I am relieved the post is about Bridge after all this time. The thread was getting out of control way back when :)
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#25 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 19:11

I don't think 2 is absurd. I wouldn't do it except maybe in one partnership where 2 shows specifically a certain range of hands including a GF + hand.

I think it's reasonable to open 1 and then bidding hearts twice. But then you have to be prepared to bid 4NT if opps bid 4 in the first round, and that could easily lead to misunderstandings.

So 1 it is. If that means that I have to bid 5 in next round I am still happy.

As for
1-(p)-1)-(p)
?

I would rebid 3. Frankly, I don't understand the appeal of 2. Sure, if partner has KJxxx-x-KJxxx-xx it would be nice to be able to stop in a partscore but I want to show my slam potential and I don't think I can make partner enthusiast without a 3 rebid.
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#26 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 21:16

View Postpescetom, on 2019-February-21, 15:17, said:

I doubt you can get away with saying that it was a psyche if it was also described/alerted/announced as strong and artificial.


You know how a psych works, right? What is described is your agreement. If the hand (deliberately) does not fit the agreement, it is a psyche. You do not announce that it is a psych.

Some RAs have (arguably illegal) restrictions on psyching artificial bids. Sensible RAs do not.

If, like the OP, you do not believe it is a psych, then depending on how it is described you may be guilty of misinformation,
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#27 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 00:59

The hand does not qualify for a 2C opening. if you open 1H its not so clear to jump shift even imo. I dont miss many games but its possible I could miss this one.
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#28 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 01:37

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-October-26, 19:11, said:

I would rebid 3. Frankly, I don't understand the appeal of 2. Sure, if partner has KJxxx-x-KJxxx-xx it would be to be able to stop in a partscore but I want to show my slam potential and I don't think I can make partner enthusiast without a 3 rebid.

Wouldn't

1-1
2-2/2N
3-3any
4

logically show 6+H6C and at least some slam interest?
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#29 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 02:48

View Postnullve, on 2020-October-27, 01:37, said:

Wouldn't

1-1
2-2/2N
3-3any
4

logically show 6+H6C and at least some slam interest?

Yes except that after
1-1
2-2NT
3
would be non-forcing so you would have to bid 4 it this stage.
When did pass become a 4-letter word? --- WinstonM
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#30 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 03:38

View Postmikeh, on 2019-February-22, 12:13, said:

Let me see: OP exhibits the following characteristics (at least, as I see it):

a) makes posts that purport to seek advice or constructive criticism

b) makes posts denigrating and insulting those who provide advise or constructive criticism

c) never once acknowledges that he may be in error....see point (b)

d) eventually stops posting on the thread, and

e) begins another thread with the same approach



Repeat ad nauseam


Now, is there a term for people like that?



Narcissism?
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#31 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 03:44

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-October-26, 19:11, said:

I don't think 2 is absurd. I wouldn't do it except maybe in one partnership where 2 shows specifically a certain range of hands including a GF + hand.

I think it's reasonable to open 1 and then bidding hearts twice. But then you have to be prepared to bid 4NT if opps bid 4 in the first round, and that could easily lead to misunderstandings.

So 1 it is. If that means that I have to bid 5 in next round I am still happy.

As for
1-(p)-1)-(p)
?

I would rebid 3. Frankly, I don't understand the appeal of 2. Sure, if partner has KJxxx-x-KJxxx-xx it would be to be able to stop in a partscore but I want to show my slam potential and I don't think I can make partner enthusiast without a 3 rebid.


Problem is your hand only has slam potential if you have a fit with partner. If partner is stacked in diamonds and spades (which is most likely), you might not make game, never mind slam. It comes down to listening to the auction. If the opponents haven't come in with diamonds or spades after two opportunities each, it is probably because partner has them. If it's a misfit, quit.
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#32 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 03:46

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-October-27, 02:48, said:

Yes except that after
1-1
2-2NT
3
would be non-forcing so you would have to bid 4 it this stage.


If partner can't bid over 3 after telling you the hand is a stonking misfit, that is probably the limit of the hand.
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#33 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 04:37

View Posthelene_t, on 2020-October-27, 02:48, said:

Yes except that after
1-1
2-2NT
3
would be non-forcing so you would have to bid 4 it this stage.

Or use a Fred Gitelman invention* (described in this article):

1-1
2-2N
3(1)-3(2)
3(3)-3N
4

(1) puppet to 3
(2) forced
(3) 5+ C, GF

:)

* possibly outside the intended context (= 1M-1N; 2-2N only?)
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#34 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 07:01

ThePossum 'Dear all. had no idea about how to bid this in a recent IMPs tourney. I figured I had 9(.5) tricks and enough to justify 2C but wasn't sure how happy anyone else would be. How else could you bid and force this to ensure you ended in the right game (or even slam). Which was 5C. Would you be upset in duplicate with another table bidding this. The alternative sequences started 1H-P-1S-P-? I was in serious need of points having made a miss click cue bid on an earlier hand causing me to miss an easy game and also missing another game by only bidding to 3. So I needed to be less cautious'
Here is the full hand. How would competent opps have interfered after 1H and how would a better south than me have approached this auction. I understand that everyone will say this is GiB's limitations. Note there was one other south (an "expert") who bid the exact same auction as me so I didn't feel totally lucky. However I genuinely feel on all assessments that my hand is stronger than everyone is saying and that it is (almost) worthy of 2C on the distributional 9 trick criteria, if not points. It also only has 3 losers. Anyway, sometimes you have to take a risk in tourneys to get some IMPs (especially after two unlucky hands) and I feel this was legitimate without exaggerating the strength of my hand "grossly"
++++++++++++++++++++
I would open 1 or 2 (Benjamin) :(
In the highly unlikely case that opponents remained silent, our auction would probably be
1 - 1
2 - Pass :(
Playing Gazilli, (again with opponents silent) a likely auction would be
1 - 1
3 - Pass (3 showing great shape but less than 16 HCP) :(

I understand the Possum's argument :) and his tactics worked well on this deal :)



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#35 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 14:06

Dear all, thanks for keeping the discussion on an ancient hand about bridge
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#36 User is online   blackshoe 

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Posted 2020-October-29, 17:31

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-26, 21:16, said:

Some RAs have (arguably illegal) restrictions on psyching artificial bids.


Quote

Law 40B2(a) The Regulating Authority:

(v.) may restrict the use of psychic artificial calls.

How would one argue that restrictions on such calls are illegal?
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#37 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2020-October-29, 23:34

I find it remarkable that anyone anywhere would argue that is a psych

But I do understand there are some sad cases in the world who would regard opening a hand with only 10 points and 5 losers at the 1 level a psych or shaving a point or two either way on a No Trump is a psych etc

There are different words for people like that.
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#38 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-29, 23:36

View Postblackshoe, on 2020-October-29, 17:31, said:

How would one argue that restrictions on such calls are illegal?


OK; this must be in the new version of the Laws. But I think that it is an illegal law and its purpose is probably only to punish people who forget Ghestem.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#39 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-October-30, 08:02

Rules restricting systems aren't illegal but seem ill-advised. Few directors or players are familiar with them.

Players who dislike a system-regulation find many ways to rationalize what seem to be its infraction. For example, see threads, here and on Bridge Winners, about third-hand openers and opening 1NT with a singleton. Although routinely flouted, apparent infraction of such regulations rarely attracts a director call. Increasingly often, players criticize director-calls as "unsporting" or "unethical". Such calls are no exception. Understandably, adverse rulings are even rarer.

System-regulations have a drastic effect on the few who read, understand, and try to comply with them. We suffer a decisive handicap.
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#40 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-31, 10:22

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-26, 21:16, said:

You know how a psych works, right?

Yes, thank you.

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-26, 21:16, said:

Some RAs have (arguably illegal) restrictions on psyching artificial bids. Sensible RAs do not.

How would you argue that such restrictions are illegal?
Law 40B2(a) says that "The Regulating Authority... may restrict the use of psychic artificial calls".

The ACBL Open Chart lists "Psyching an Artificial opening bid" under Disallowed Bidding Agreements.
FIGB regulations say "It is forbidden to psych conventional opening calls in pairs competitions".
NZ Bridge Manual says "It is prohibited to "psyche" any conventional opening call that has as one of its options...".
And so on.
Ok, UK is different. "Historically, there have been EBU regulations that a player may not psyche a game-forcing or near game-forcing artificial opening bid: these regulations are no longer in force." Just as well the EBU later became sensible :)
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