[HardVector]

---

Using any method, how do you bid this? Matchpoints, NS vul, E is the dealer, the opponents are silent.

[apollo1201]

I guess (opening 12 counts in 5cM, if opening at 11 or playing precision, then it is an opening) that with a broken minor suit and the risk of burying H’s, I’ll pass as opener.

Then it goes

2NT (20-21) 3C Stayman
3H (H’s) 3S (forcing raise, slam inv or better)
4C 4NT
5C (4 or 1) 5D (Q?)
5H (no) 6H (should not be too bad even if partner had Ax or Axx C)

If opener says yes to Q (while not bidding 6D lol) then continue by 6C do you have sth nice in C for me, and if yes then 7H be it.

True, if C’s behave, the QJ S produce 7NT w/o having to worry about the HQ. Relayers will probably have it!

[nullve]

nullve-nullve:

1♣-1♦ (NAT or BAL; 4+ H)
2♥-2N (bad MIN, 4+ H, not 3433; GF relay)
3♣-3♦ (5+ C, unBAL; relay)
3♥-3♠ (2425 or 4H6C; relay)
4♦-4♠ (2416, hence 9-11 hcp; Parity Key Card Blackwood)
5♣-5♦ (odd # of key cards, no trump Q; ♣K ask)
5N-7N (♣K, ♠K, no ♣J; contract)
P

(Had to look it up.)

[The_Badger]

With East as dealer, in my view this is a far easier hand to bid with Precision - opening 2♣ and relaying - than with SAYC or 2/1. With Precision the six card ♣ suit doesn't remain hidden, whereas with SAYC and 2/1 there's a 4-4 ♥ fit immediately on offer.

[pescetom]

[EDIT: accidentally deleted the post I refer to, but no matter.]

I was asked for an explanation the bidding I posted:

West East
- 1♣ (2+card)
2♣ 2♥ (GF, may be artificial; 4-card hearts)
3♥ 3♠ (fixes trumps and invites control-bid; spades)
3NT 4♣ (spades; clubs)
4♦ 5♦ (diamonds; diamonds, odd key cards, no second control in clubs)
5NT 6♥ (no Q trumps; nor have I)
6NT pass

I guess that a more enterprising East might have raised to 7NT, looking at the length of his clubs and trusting his partner not to have counted K diamonds.

[HardVector]

Side question: Is the east hand an opening hand? I deemed it not, but it was very close. I would have opened Kx ATxx x KJxxxx, which is just a jack stronger than the actual hand.

[sfi]

Playing Polish Club or Precision, I propose:

2C - 2D (ask)
2H - 2S (ask)
3C (6/4 shape) - 3D (ask)
3H (0-1 diamond) - 4C (suit agreement)
4H (cue) - 4NT (RKC)
5H - 5NT (kings?)
6S (spade K) - 7NT

Or I might set hearts:

2C - 2D
2H - 2S
3C - 3H
3S (cue) - 4S (RKC)
4NT (1/4) - 5C (Q?)
5D (no) - ?

Now I can ask about either black suit, but not both. So I'd settle for 6H (at IMPs) or 6NT (MPs).

[sfi]

HardVector, on 2018-October-28, 19:36, said:

Side question: Is the east hand an opening hand? I deemed it not, but it was very close. I would have opened Kx ATxx x KJxxxx, which is just a jack stronger than the actual hand.

Yes - it's 6-4 with reasonable suits and good controls. Life is likely to be worse if I pass than if I open.

[rmnka447]

How aggressively do you open?

I know many people who would pass the East hand. But the hand satisfies the rule of 20 and has 2 QTs so there are bound to be some who do open it.

Let's start with East as the opener ---

--- - 1 ♣
1 ♥ - 2 ♥

It's Ok to use 1430 as West because you have controls in all the suits. So, West asks himself, "What do I need to know for slam?" The answer is ♥ honors East holds and possibly Ks for evaluating whether grand should be bid if East shows ♥ AQ.

4 NT - 5 ♣ (1 or 4, obviously 1)
5 ♦ - 5 ♥ (♥ Q ask, denial by East)
6 ♥ - Pass

If East passes then West opens ---

2 NT - 3 ♣ (puppet Stayman)
3 ♦ - 3 ♠ (West=1 or more 4 card majors, East=4 card ♥ suit)
4 ♣ - 4 ♦ (West=♣ control+good hand for slam, East=♦ control, also interest in slam)

At this point, I can see the auction diverging in either of two ways ---

4 ♠ - 4 NT (West=♠control, East=1430)
5 ♣ - 5 ♦ (4 KCs, Queen ask)
5 ♥ - 6 ♥ (no Queen, set final contract)
Pass

,or,

4 ♥ - 4 ♠ (West=waiting/sets trumps, East=♠ control)
4 NT - 5 ♣ (1430, 1 KC)
5 ♦ - 5 ♥ (queen ask, no Queen)
6 ♥ - Pass

[hamish32]

E - W
1C - 1D
2H - 2NT
4C - 4D
4H - 4NT
5C - 5S
6H

1C = 2+ ( but 5+!C and unbal when weak since we open weak NT)
1D = 4+ H ( welsh transfer)
2H = 5+C 3-4 H 10-14 hcp
2NT = forcing inquiry
4C = 6S 4H
4D = first or second cue
4H = 0-1 key cards
4NT = 4 key cards (turbo)
5C = confirms all the key cards plus a control in !C
5S = do you have the trump Q?
6H = no trump Q

Responder could now bid 6S asking for an extra picture in S (suggesting 6NT with a gap in S or 7!C/7NT with S K) but to do that responder really wants a third C. The grand here is only 68%. i would pass 6H which is 100% while 6NT and 7C and 7NT all light on a bad C break and NT contracts very light when D is led which is likley.

Interesting that all 3 contracts above 6H are the same 68% assuming D lead.

[rhm]

HardVector, on 2018-October-28, 19:36, said:

Side question: Is the east hand an opening hand? I deemed it not, but it was very close. I would have opened Kx ATxx x KJxxxx, which is just a jack stronger than the actual hand.

Is this an above average hand?
It surely is.
I would prefer this hand to an average balanced 12 count, which nowadays is almost never passed
I would also not mind ending in 3NT opposite a balanced 12 count though the hand is worth more in a trump contract.
I will not always make 3NT but neither do you when you open balanced 12 counts.
If you pass this hand you have no reasonable chance reaching a grand slam.

Rainer Herrmann

[nekthen]

Using ZAR points East is a clear opener
10 hcp
15 distribution point (2 longest suits = 10 plus longest minus shortest = 5)
4 controls

You need 27 to open

1♣ 1N Art GF
2♥ 3♥
3♠ 4♣
4♥ 4N
5♦ 5♠
6♥ pass

At this point West knows 5+♣, 4♥ K♠ A♥ no Q♥ almost certain K♣ otherwise he does not have an opening bid and 0 or 1♦
Otherwise he would open 1N or pass.
7♥ depends on picking up the Q and 7N depends on 6 club tricks so he passes

[nekthen]

It may be better to look for major fit first

1♣ 1♦ transfer ♥
2♥ 2♠ Natural Forcing
3♣ 3♦ Art GF
4♣ 4♦ Q
4♥ 4N
5♦ 5♠
6♥

Now we know 6+♣ 4♥ A♥ no Q♥ must have K♠ and K♣ otherwise he does not have an opening bid. I think now he bids 7N because it is 68% if partner does not hold J♣ and 100% if he does

[Tramticket]

Yes, I would always open the East hand.

I don't think that we want to be in a grand slam. 7♣ or 7NT requires the clubs to be 3-2 and although a 68% chance is a pretty good odds, it isn't enough for me to bid a grand. Since the scoring is pairs, I predict that reaching 6NT would be an extremely good score (this will make if clubs are 3-2 or if we can play the hearts for no losers).

But I suspect that we would play in 6♥ after an auction: 1♣, 1♥; 2♥, 3♦¹; 4♥, 4NT; 5♣², 5♦³; 5♥⁴, 6♥

[1] Trial bid
[2] One key card
[3] Do you have the queen of hearts?
[4] No

[Tramticket]

nullve, on 2018-October-28, 14:23, said:

nullve-nullve:

1♣-1♦ (NAT or BAL; 4+ H)
2♥-2N (bad MIN, 4+ H, not 3433; GF relay)
3♣-3♦ (5+ C, unBAL; relay)
3♥-3♠ (2425 or 4H6C; relay)
4♦-4♠ (2416, hence 9-11 hcp; Parity Key Card Blackwood)
5♣-5♦ (odd # of key cards, no trump Q; ♣K ask)
5N-7N (♣K, ♠K, no ♣J; contract)
P

(Had to look it up.)

So Nullve playing with Nullve doesn't know the system. Maybe Nullve should practice playing with himself more often!

[The_Badger]

Tramticket, on 2018-October-29, 06:35, said:

Yes, I would always open the East hand.

I don't think that we want to be in a grand slam. 7♣ or 7NT requires the clubs to be 3-2 and although a 68% chance is a pretty good odds, it isn't enough for me to bid a grand.

I was going to say the same thing in my post about the odds of a bidding a grand slam, but if anyone reading the forums is wondering what my colleague, Tramticket, is on about here, it is generally accepted that grand slams should only be bid where the odds are 75% or greater. In reality though I'm sure most of us have been at the seven level once in our lifetime depending on a hook (finesse) or a drop.

[HardVector]

In a slightly below average game, the results for 7n: 11 of 11 mps, 6n: 9 of 11 mps, 6h+1: 6 of 11 mps, 6h=: 4 of 11 mps. Scoring was a 12 table web for those wondering about the 11 top.

Getting to 7n basically depends upon disclosing the 6 card club suit to partner. Methods that can't do that are going to have a hard time finding the contract. Making 7 is about 62.5%. Those not bidding the grand because it's not 100%, how good does it have to be before you will bid it? 75%? 80%?

On the side question, I'm not going to argue about that because frankly I'm tired of it. All I'm going to say, is if you open that hand and your partner puts it in 3n, are you going to be proud of the hand you put down? Also note, that I passed in first seat with that hand and still got to 7n. If you open aggressively, you have to bid weak after that, but if you open weak, you can then bid strong afterwards.

My bidding (using GUS)

__________________________pass
1c (strong)_________________2c (good hand, GF, minor suit oriented)
2d (relay)__________________2h (clubs, single suited or 6/4 major)
2s (relay)__________________2n (6/4)
3c (relay)__________________3h (2-4-1-6)
3s (asking, clubs)___________4h (2 keycards, no Q)
4s (asking, kings)___________5h (1 king, spades)
7n (I can count to 13)

By the way, GUS introduced me to the idea of evaluating good hands in response to a 1c opener differently. I was familiar with the idea of 1d=0-7 and 1h=8-11 with other bids being 12+. They also include hand that have 10+ pts all in AKQ with 3+ controls. You will note that the east hand barely qualifies for that. Plus, because I didn't open it, he knew I didn't have anything else to show, so didn't have to figure out if I had the J♣. For him, the 62% was good enough.

[nullve]

hamish32, on 2018-October-28, 23:41, said:

The grand here is only 68%.

nekthen, on 2018-October-29, 06:13, said:

I think now he bids 7N because it is 68% if partner does not hold J♣ and 100% if he does

Tramticket, on 2018-October-29, 06:35, said:

I don't think that we want to be in a grand slam. 7♣ or 7NT requires the clubs to be 3-2 and although a 68% chance is a pretty good odds, it isn't enough for me to bid a grand.

68 % is the a priori probability of a 3-2 club split. But opps haven't bid, so the actual probability is higher. How much higher depends on bidding methods/style around the table.

[ggwhiz]

HardVector, on 2018-October-28, 19:36, said:

Side question: Is the east hand an opening hand? I deemed it not, but it was very close. I would have opened Kx ATxx x KJxxxx, which is just a jack stronger than the actual hand.

I would open if you add a few 10's and 9's in the long suits. It avoids partner bidding hopeless 3nt's and asking you where the hand you held during the auction is when you lay down dummy.

[miamijd]

In any sort of strong club system, you're probably going to be able to find 7NT, which at MPs, is where you want to be (probably in IMPs, too).

In standard 2/1, East is not strong enough to open. For those who would open, you aren't going to be able to handle auctions like 1C - 1S - 2C very well if 2C could be 10-15. It's just too wide a range. And this isn't even a great 10, because the club suit is awful without support from partner.

So you end up with West opening 2NT, and now East has to decide whether to chase slam in H or C. In MPs, I have to admit I would use Stayman and end up in 6H. That's why a strong club is generally better for slam bidding (though it doesn't do so well with part-score hands). But in IMPs, where strain doesn't matter, I would bid 3S (relay to 3NT) followed by 4C, showing a likely six-bagger in clubs and interest in a slam. I'm not concerned about being in 6C rather than in 6H, but I do want to get to the best slam, and it's more likely to be C than H. Also, if there is a chance for a grand, then it's probably in clubs. Then it's easy:

2NT 3S(1)
3NT 4C(2)
4D(3) 4NT(4)
5D(5) 5S(6)
7NT(7)

(1) relay to 3NT
(2) 6+ clubs slammish
(3) key-card
(4) two no queen
(5) Have all 5; king ask
(6) Ks; no Kh
(7) 4S + 2H + 1D + 6C = 13

Cheers,
Mike