[briannz556]

I'm practicing my 2/1 and came across this hand with West as dealer:

---

My thoughts went:
1♠ - 2♦ [GF]
3♦ - 3♥ [CB]
3♠ - 4N [0-3 RKC]
5♣

when I wondered how I can ask for a side-suit K. In this case, K♣. Any advice would be appreciated.

Brian

[The_Badger]

http://www.clairebri...omankeycard.pdf

This is as good as it gets from the founder and president of BBO, Fred Gitelman

[smerriman]

Easy - 5NT Having partner bid a specific king always seems more useful to me than knowing how many kings they have.

[helene_t]

4NT as keycard ask works very badly when clubs is trumps. To be fair, any method works badly with clubs as trumps: we simply don't have enough bidding space below 5♣ and 6♣, and besides, there will often be alternative strains when we have a minor suit fit (4/5NT to play? 4♥/♠ offering to play in a 5-2 fit?) which makes some slam conventions murky.

After 5♣:
5♦=to play (unlikely opposite three keycards and arguably opener should only pass with zero, not with three)
5♥=asks for ♦Q
5♠=Must be some kind of grand slam try related to the spade suit
5NT=king ask

But the king ask asks opener only to show kings below the trump suit (you don't want to bypass 6♣ if you don't know if the king you have is the one partner looks for).

So this is tricky. One thing you could do is to start with a 4♣ control bid instead of 3♥. When we have a minor suit fit, we show stoppers below 3NT, so 3♥ withh a singleton is misleading. If you start with 4♣, maybe opener can figure out that ♦K is a useful card? Or maybe this is far fetched.

Another possibility is to start with a 4♥ splinter after the 3♦ raise. Opener is now captain which makes it easier because now you can sign off after opener's 5NT enquiry with good conscience, as you don't have any kings.

However, you do have six diamonds which makes grand slam not too bad.

You could also agree that the king ask really asks partner to show kings no matter what. You can then sign off in 6NT if you don't have all kings. This is usually a bad idea since you may not have 12 tricks in notrumps. Here, you are lucky to have 12 top tricks even with spades 5-2.

So this is just not possible to investigate accurately, I think. Playing minorwood or kick-back you could investigate kings below 6♣, but to find this slam either opener needs to know that responder has six diamonds, or responder needs to know that opener has solid spades.

[smerriman]

helene_t, on 2018-September-26, 23:04, said:

4NT as keycard ask works very badly when clubs is trumps.
...
(you don't want to bypass 6♣ if you don't know if the king you have is the one partner looks for).
...
So this is just not possible to investigate accurately, I think.

Diamonds are trumps, right? 5NT - 6♣ shows the king of clubs without bypassing 6♦.

[Cyberyeti]

We use 6♣ here as I have the K or Q of clubs, bid 7 with the other one.

5N is then I need something I can't ask for via a suit ask, or the answer would be above 6 of the trump suit.

We have more room for this sort of shenanigans as 4♥ would ask aces for us rather than 4N and may have exchanged more info before making the 5N bid.

[Tramticket]

I would have cue-bid 4♣ over 3♠ rather than launching prematurely into RKCB. But given that we have used RKCB a 5NT king ask gets the response that we need as pointed out by smerriman.

[pescetom]

smerriman, on 2018-September-27, 03:16, said:

Diamonds are trumps, right? 5NT - 6♣ shows the king of clubs without bypassing 6♦.

But when not holding the K♣, partner has to know whether to return to trumps or to bypass and show his higher king.
This is an inherent limit of playing Specific Kings without playing a Kickback: you can't have your cake and eat it.
Either the partnership agrees to return to trumps, or agrees to always show, or agrees to leave it up to partner's judgement, or some mixture of these in certain predefined situations.
My suggestion would be to just return to red trumps until the partnership is mature and ready to experiment some Kickback scheme.

[pescetom]

briannz556, on 2018-September-26, 20:36, said:

My thoughts went:
1♠ - 2♦ [GF]
3♦ - 3♥ [CB]
3♠ - 4N [0-3 RKC]
5♣

when I wondered how I can ask for a side-suit K. In this case, K♣. Any advice would be appreciated.

Beware that 3♥ is not unequivocably a control-bid when West is a stranger playing 2/1. West's 3♦ bid does not exclude interest in an NT contract and some people play that 3♥ could (or even must) be a stopper, so you might be heading for confusion here. A direct bid of 4♥ would be a control-bid in ♦ to almost anyone (at worst, a splinter which happens to be fine here) and if you intend to RKCB with 4NT anyway it costs you little.

If you agree to play Specific Kings but with the rule that when trumps are red you return to trumps rather than show a higher king, then a 5NT ask will work on this particular hand.
An improvement that is much simpler to learn than Kickback is Turbo, which enables you to check the Keycards without leaving your control-bid sequence.
Then with a regular partner you could bid something like:
1♠ - 2♦
3♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4NT (even Keycards)
5♥ (denies ♣) - 6♦
pass

[ggwhiz]

I don't understand why 5nt would not get you a specific King 6♠ bid unless you specifically agree not to bypass the trump suit.

That comes with it's own problems and I once had an opponent hesitate over 5nt and then bid the small slam on a hand like this. Next hand raised to the grand and when the spade King made it the Director rolled it back, they appealed and lost their deposit.

Our rule is if you can't stand a response above the trump suit (usually knowing 6nt will play if you get that) continue cue bidding instead of rkc. This one is easy to miss since you have to anticipate the problem a full round earlier than usual and 6nt doesn't look cold from the east hand.

[Tramticket]

ggwhiz, on 2018-September-27, 09:07, said:

I don't understand why 5nt would not get you a specific King 6♠ bid unless you specifically agree not to bypass the trump suit.

We would have that agreement - we would not go past the trump suit unless we are prepared to go to seven (isn't this normal, even if you are just showing the number of kings?). A 6C response would show either one king (the king of clubs) or two kings (hearts and spades). Otherwise we would bid 6D. Obviously, we only use 5NT if this response will lead us to bid 7 with a 6c response.

But as I have already indicated, I would not have rushed to bid 4NT anyway.

[pescetom]

ggwhiz, on 2018-September-27, 09:07, said:

I don't understand why 5nt would not get you a specific King 6♠ bid unless you specifically agree not to bypass the trump suit.

As already discussed, you need to agree one way or the other, and neither will always work out well.
I suggest that you agree not to bypass the trump suit when it is red.

ggwhiz, on 2018-September-27, 09:07, said:

Our rule is if you can't stand a response above the trump suit (usually knowing 6nt will play if you get that) continue cue bidding instead of rkc.

Continue control (cue) bidding instead of RKCB is a good rule anyway, except for the few times you really only need to know Keycards and Queen.

[msjennifer]

briannz556, on 2018-September-26, 20:36, said:

I'm practicing my 2/1 and came across this hand with West as dealer:

---

My thoughts went:
1♠ - 2♦ [GF]
3♦ - 3♥ [CB]
3♠ - 4N [0-3 RKC]
5♣

when I wondered how I can ask for a side-suit K. In this case, K♣. Any advice would be appreciated.

Brian

Sir,Use the SPIRAL. You want to know specifically about club king.Now 5D will be sign off.5H WILL ASK ABOUT DQ,5S asks about SK, 5NT asks about HK and 6C asks for CK,So bid 6C if partner does not have it he will bid the next step 6D and if he has it he will respond 6H .For more details please refer George Rosenkranz THE SPIRAL on GOOGLE search.(If you do not like this method then just bid 5NT and hope for the best).In the present case when he denies CK you can pass his 6D bid.And if he bids 6H you can bid 7NT.There is perhaps no way to find out if he has AKQJx of S but not the CK.A spade break of 4/3 and one can discard all 4 club losers and score 7NT as you will be playing the hand with 6D,5S,and the H and C aces.

This post has been edited by msjennifer: 2018-September-27, 23:44

[Lovera]

If 3♥ shows six diamonds than 5♥ query yes for Q but also (not having it) for 10 cards fit and now here you have 5♠ positive anwer about K. Then 5NT sures all keycards query also for King: 6♣ K in club suit, 6♦ denies K ....

[johnu]

smerriman, on 2018-September-27, 03:16, said:

Diamonds are trumps, right? 5NT - 6♣ shows the king of clubs without bypassing 6♦.

Over 5NT, I would just bid 7♦ with the West hand. If partner is interested in a grand, there should be 13 easy tricks available.

[briannz556]

msjennifer, on 2018-September-27, 23:14, said:

Sir,Use the SPIRAL. You want to know specifically about club king.Now 5D will be sign off.5H WILL ASK ABOUT DQ,5S asks about SK, 5NT asks about HK and 6C asks for CK,So bid 6C if partner does not have it he will bid the next step 6D and if he has it he will respond 6H .For more details please refer George Rosenkranz THE SPIRAL on GOOGLE search.(If you do not like this method then just bid 5NT and hope for the best).In the present case when he denies CK you can pass his 6D bid.And if he bids 6H you can bid 7NT.There is perhaps no way to find out if he has AKQJx of S but not the CK.A spade break of 4/3 and one can discard all 4 club losers and score 7NT as you will be playing the hand with 6D,5S,and the H and C aces.

Thanks for that response. I've Googled it and it seems to fit the bill rather well. Just need partner's opinion for adoption.