[hamish32]

dokoko, on 2017-July-30, 08:39, said:

If opener has a very strong hand, what does responder do with one KC (in trumps) and no outside control? Play other methods I guess.

your general methods have to be good enough that partner can tell that you had 1 because of the earlier actions. When responder has shown a very weak hand 4NT is 0 and 5T is 1. So long as responder has forced the slam exploration with a very strong hand he should be looking at the rest and so knows the answer.

[pescetom]

keylime, on 2017-August-06, 19:26, said:

Turbo doesn't come up that much for Larry and I, but when it happens...4NT is even keycards, 4X is odd, and 5NT promises the queen with even keycards. Normally.

My partner and I have been playing 4NT Turbo for 2 years, happily and without real problems. We recently decided to add 5NT as a denial of the queen, it hasn't happened often yet. Irrespective of whether it denies or affirms the queen (it seemed to us to make more sense as a denial, in particular when trumps are clubs) I am curious to know why you insist it also promises even keycards. If you have an odd number of keycards and already communicated this to partner, he will still be interested in the queen if he lacks it. If partner already told you the parity of his keycards then you already can guess the total and if you deny the queen he will make appropriate inferences. Maybe you are referring to the situation when 4NT was not available as Turbo? In that case we play 5NT as Turbo, with no implications about queen.

[dokoko]

seems I didnt describe our method well - at least no other poster understood it.

For example with diamonds agreed:
- cuebids below 4♦ (if available) show a control in the bid suit, saying nothing about KC
- 4♦ is waiting
- 4♥ (the Turbo bid [Kickback]) shows an even number of KC, saying nothing about specific controls
- 4♠/5♣ shows a control in the bid suit with an odd number of KC
- 4NT shows a heart control (the Kickback suit) with an odd number of KC

An alternative would be 4♥ showing an odd number of KC; cuebids bypassing 4♥ would then show an even number of KC.

My question was just whether there are good reasons to prefer one version to the other.

[Lovera]

GrahamJson, on 2017-July-19, 12:00, said:

They say that what goes around comes around. From the description above Turbo sounds remarkably like the Culbertson 4NT bid used in the 1930s. Maybe Culbertson Asking Bids (which I have played many, many years ago) will make a comeback soon.

Indipendently by Turbo discussion i'm happy to read it about Culbertson Asking Bid (i have the old and new version) because i've tried to insert part of it in many my posts.

[pescetom]

dokoko, on 2017-September-05, 12:20, said:

seems I didnt describe our method well - at least no other poster understood it.

For example with diamonds agreed:
- cuebids below 4♦ (if available) show a control in the bid suit, saying nothing about KC
- 4♦ is waiting
- 4♥ (the Turbo bid [Kickback]) shows an even number of KC, saying nothing about specific controls
- 4♠/5♣ shows a control in the bid suit with an odd number of KC
- 4NT shows a heart control (the Kickback suit) with an odd number of KC

An alternative would be 4♥ showing an odd number of KC; cuebids bypassing 4♥ would then show an even number of KC.

My question was just whether there are good reasons to prefer one version to the other.

It seems quite obvious that Turbo is 4 of the Asking Strain if you play Kickback, but as you say that has no relevance to your question. I replied to your question that (based on real experience of showing an even number of KC) I can see no reason to prefer one to the other.

[pescetom]

Lovera, on 2018-February-22, 10:31, said:

Indipendently by Turbo discussion i'm happy to read it about Culbertson Asking Bid (i have the old and new version) because i've tried to insert part of it in many my posts.

Please start a new thread as it is useful to keep this one about Turbo

[helene_t]

Wouldn't it be better to play if, say, hearts are trump:
4♠=0/3 4NT now asks for the queen
4NT=1/4 5♣ now asks for the queen and the diamond control, 5♦ only asks for diamond control
5♣2, no queen. 5♦ now asks for a diamond control
5♦2, queen, diamond control
5♥2, queen, no diamond control

I am just worried that the parity is not always enough to clarify the number of keycards held. But maybe Fantunes had a way to resolve the ambiguity

[Lovera]

pescetom, on 2018-February-22, 12:08, said:

Please start a new thread as it is useful to keep this one about Turbo

A question by me: have you almost heard to talk about Culbertson Asking Bid ?

[hamish32]

helene_t, on 2018-February-22, 20:12, said:

Wouldn't it be better to play if, say, hearts are trump:
4♠=0/3 4NT now asks for the queen
4NT=1/4 5♣ now asks for the queen and the diamond control, 5♦ only asks for diamond control
5♣2, no queen. 5♦ now asks for a diamond control
5♦2, queen, diamond control
5♥2, queen, no diamond control

I am just worried that the parity is not always enough to clarify the number of keycards held. But maybe Fantunes had a way to resolve the ambiguity

This structure looks more like Key Card with no asking bid first.

The main point of TURBO is to avoid getting into making one player captain and thus keeping both players in the decision making process. Its a mind set shift. Which ever partner knows the correct contract first they bid it all other bids are providing more information and expressing the fact that we are still looking. For example once a key card is missing we bid slam, once we don't have a suit held we bid game.

It seems to me in this thread that the issue of looking for the queen is being delt with two different ways by different partnerships- some are interested in finding the queen below the 5 level so they can avoid bad slams or slams on a hook in the trump suit. Others are interested in the Q once they are looking at bidding a grand.

For my self at imps I don't mind missing the Q as the second potential loser its often a two way finesse position and that I am happy to call a good slam if the rest of the hand is otherwise sound. Its often resolved by the lead if the opps don't know we are missing the Queen because we have not asked. If the hand is shaky and I don't have the Q I will tend to bid game and partner if partner has extras including the Q they will generally then TURBO knowing one thing I was looking at was no Queen. On the other hand once we are looking for grand the Q of trump is a top priority to locate below 6 of our trump suit - so we use 5NT as a cue for the Q suggesting all the keys (if all keys is not already known).

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2018-February-22, 20:12, said:

I am just worried that the parity is not always enough to clarify the number of keycards held. But maybe Fantunes had a way to resolve the ambiguity

That's the least of problems when you actually play Turbo, believe me.
Much like "only" knowing that the number of Keycards is 1/4 or 0/3 after a RKCB

The real problems in my experience are:
(1) you give up other uses of 4NT and 5NT within the control-bid sequence, such as showing a further control in the last suit bid, or a simple waiting relay to "rightside" the bidding
(2) sometimes it will be the "wrong" partner who gets the opportunity to bid Turbo as his partner is not in a good position to judge the contract (but not that often)
(3) sometimes the need to bid Turbo will "wrongside" the bid about Clubs (but equally often it will "rightside" things).

[pescetom]

hamish32, on 2018-March-08, 16:31, said:

For my self at imps I don't mind missing the Q as the second potential loser its often a two way finesse position and that I am happy to call a good slam if the rest of the hand is otherwise sound. Its often resolved by the lead if the opps don't know we are missing the Queen because we have not asked. If the hand is shaky and I don't have the Q I will tend to bid game and partner if partner has extras including the Q they will generally then TURBO knowing one thing I was looking at was no Queen. On the other hand once we are looking for grand the Q of trump is a top priority to locate below 6 of our trump suit - so we use 5NT as a cue for the Q suggesting all the keys (if all keys is not already known).

Good points.
Of course those of us condemned to play MP tournaments are often looking to see if 6NT is possible even when 6 in a suit with 4 keycards looks sensible, and knowing about the Q can be vital for this.

Although we describe our 5NT bid as denial of the Q or extra length, it can also be used to warn about the lack of one keycard when partner does not know about the total number of keycards but should know (we hope) that we DO have the Q or extra length. Vice versa if partner knows that we already know that he has the Q, then he can assume that we hold all keycards.
On a good day

[hamish32]

pescetom, on 2018-March-09, 11:51, said:

Good points.
Of course those of us condemned to play MP tournaments are often looking to see if 6NT is possible even when 6 in a suit with 4 keycards looks sensible, and knowing about the Q can be vital for this.

Although we describe our 5NT bid as denial of the Q or extra length, it can also be used to warn about the lack of one keycard when partner does not know about the total number of keycards but should know (we hope) that we DO have the Q or extra length. Vice versa if partner knows that we already know that he has the Q, then he can assume that we hold all keycards.
On a good day

This is an interesting point about missing 6NT. I think its hard to optimize methods for everything. When I was thinking about missing 6NT I realised that we almost always use cue-bidding turbo when we have fitting hands and shape. It is very hard to know weather 6NT is a good idea once we have found a good 6m. For example on occasion I have bid 6NT in a turbo auction and gone light discovering 6m was already a near top. So I gave up - our turbo approach is optimized for suit slams. When we bid 6NT its generally on power and frequently via a quantitative 4NT or a key card sequence followed by 6NT.