Some ethics to consider?
#1
Posted 2017-May-13, 02:35
Incidentally, this isn't really about Law as such - but move it if appropriate.
My LHO was in 4♠ and led Q♣ from hand - wrongly, since lead was in dummy. This was pointed out before my partner had played, and she apologised and led a low ♣ from dummy instead. It looked as if she'd been planning to run it: anyway I had my K ready and I played it on the low card. Now declarer says "I've got to play the Q, I've already exposed it". I remonstrated: "no, no, play your natural card I don't want to penalise you". But she insisted, dropping her Q under my K.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 'penalty card' rule doesn't apply to declarer, surely?
The consequence, as you'll probably have guessed, is that west went one down, whilst every other E-W pair made game or at least a part score. A complete bottom for her and a top for us, which I think we didn't really deserve.
The other incident, in the same session - different oppos - was that I revoked. I like to think that's a rare thing with me, I'm usually pretty careful! But I was victim of the 'sticky cards' syndrome (some other player had probably been eating chocolate biscuits)! Anyway declarer was drawing trumps from dummy, I discarded when my last trump was actually stuck behind another card. Luckily declarer, thinking he had a bad split, spent some time pondering what to play from hand and this gave me time to notice my revoke and quickly snatch up my discard and play the trump instead. I then realised I should have left my discard on the table as a penalty card, but declarer said "no, no, pick it up!" Very generous of him.
I redeemed my conscience by discarding that same card on the next trick, anyway - so it didn't affect the outcome.
#2
Posted 2017-May-13, 03:03
London UK
#3
Posted 2017-May-13, 10:58
#4
Posted 2017-May-13, 12:40
Furthermore, either defender (without consultation) may accept the lead out of turn. Pointing out that declarer led from the wrong hand is NOT a command to lead from the right hand.
Larry an ACBL Club Director
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)
Santa Fe Precision ♣ published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail ♣. 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified ♣ (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary ♣ Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
#5
Posted 2017-May-13, 13:04
PrecisionL, on 2017-May-13, 12:40, said:
Correct, though I'd say that if a defender points out declarer has led from the wrong hand, they are rejecting the lead out of turn and declarer must lead from the correct hand (laws 55A, 55B2).
ahydra
#6
Posted 2017-May-13, 15:38
What is baby oil made of?
#7
Posted 2017-May-13, 16:36
ahydra, on 2017-May-13, 13:04, said:
ahydra
My reading is the same as PrecisionL's. Pointing it out does not commit the defending side to reject the lead out of turn.
#8
Posted 2017-May-13, 17:37
sfi, on 2017-May-13, 16:36, said:
Also, declarer didn't even have to lead a club.
#9
Posted 2017-May-13, 21:42
ahydra, on 2017-May-13, 13:04, said:
ahydra
But if one of them rejects it and the other accepts it, 55A says how to resolve it -- the player to the left of the seat where it was incorrectly led from takes priority. So you're supposed to allow each opponent an opportunity to express their opinion.
In practice (at least in my experience), this almost never happens. It usually goes like in your case -- someone calls attention to the incorrect lead, and it's treated as a rejection, and the other defender doesn't contradict him, so declarer leads from the correct hand. But most players also know about the "no penalty card for declarer" rule, so they at least get that part right.
#10
Posted 2017-May-14, 06:08
661_Pete, on 2017-May-13, 02:35, said:
I redeemed my conscience by discarding that same card on the next trick, anyway - so it didn't affect the outcome.
661_Pete, on 2017-May-13, 10:58, said:
I have honestly never understood why people like or even play in game where adherence to the rules is "casual".
PrecisionL, on 2017-May-13, 12:40, said:
Furthermore, either defender (without consultation) may accept the lead out of turn. Pointing out that declarer led from the wrong hand is NOT a command to lead from the right hand.
Larry an ACBL Club Director
In practice the comment usually constitutes a request to play from the correct hand, unless the partner of the commentator says very quickly that they accept it.
When a declarer plays from the wrong hand and I don't mind I usually give it some time in case my partner wants to accept or reject the lead.
Stefanie a county director
#11
Posted 2017-May-14, 07:28
Vampyr, on 2017-May-14, 06:08, said:
The second level is a bit more serious: the fortnightly tourneys, pairs matches on seven tables with MP scoring. I try to get into one of those when I can (they have to be booked in advance and there's a waiting list), because sometimes I feel a 'competitive' streak in my bones, and the more formal atmosphere sometimes appeals to me. At these tables things are slightly stricter: there's a Director; you're not supposed to ask for help, not supposed to ask for or offer explanation to partner, and when an irregularity occurs we're supposed to adhere to the laws.
But loosely!
Seeing as everyone in the group finds these 'House Rules' pitched at exactly the right level, it all goes fine! And it's not really about winning, not for us!
The U3A does organise more serious contests at county level, and for these I understand the rules are applied much more strictly - probably more in the way you're familiar with. I've seen them at play but never tried to get into one of those events. I'm probably not good enough.....
#12
Posted 2017-May-14, 08:38
661_Pete, on 2017-May-13, 02:35, said:
Incidentally, this isn't really about Law as such - but move it if appropriate.
My LHO was in 4♠ and led Q♣ from hand - wrongly, since lead was in dummy. This was pointed out before my partner had played, and she apologised and led a low ♣ from dummy instead. It looked as if she'd been planning to run it: anyway I had my K ready and I played it on the low card. Now declarer says "I've got to play the Q, I've already exposed it". I remonstrated: "no, no, play your natural card I don't want to penalise you". But she insisted, dropping her Q under my K.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 'penalty card' rule doesn't apply to declarer, surely?
The consequence, as you'll probably have guessed, is that west went one down, whilst every other E-W pair made game or at least a part score. A complete bottom for her and a top for us, which I think we didn't really deserve.
The other incident, in the same session - different oppos - was that I revoked. I like to think that's a rare thing with me, I'm usually pretty careful! But I was victim of the 'sticky cards' syndrome (some other player had probably been eating chocolate biscuits)! Anyway declarer was drawing trumps from dummy, I discarded when my last trump was actually stuck behind another card. Luckily declarer, thinking he had a bad split, spent some time pondering what to play from hand and this gave me time to notice my revoke and quickly snatch up my discard and play the trump instead. I then realised I should have left my discard on the table as a penalty card, but declarer said "no, no, pick it up!" Very generous of him.
I redeemed my conscience by discarding that same card on the next trick, anyway - so it didn't affect the outcome.
#13
Posted 2017-May-14, 08:52
msjennifer, on 2017-May-14, 08:38, said:
I have played at a very nice bridge club in southern Ontario, where all the players are very friendly. However, there is no issue with making a director call, and players are not afraid to do so. It is not accusatory, but just a matter of making sure that the rules are followed.
In the case mentioned above, the other statements made are correct according to the laws.
#14
Posted 2017-May-14, 22:18
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#15
Posted 2017-May-15, 06:50
Vampyr, on 2017-May-14, 06:08, said:
blackshoe, on 2017-May-14, 22:18, said:
The reality is that a great many people prefer a casual atmosphere at clubs, including a relaxed attitude toward penalties for infractions, and rectifications. They are at bridge club for a pleasant social experience and to play an entertaining game, not to engage in a fierce competition. Tournaments and leagues exist for serious play, people know this, and they choose to enter or not.
Perhaps a practical approach for clubs would be to establish one or two games a week as "serious" games with all rules enforced, thus catering to those who want such events. Then see what the relative attendance is, and let supply and demand do its work.
-gwnn
#16
Posted 2017-May-15, 09:19
RD350LC, on 2017-May-14, 08:52, said:
In the case mentioned above, the other statements made are correct according to the laws.
Yes, I don't see how a club is less "friendly" when the game is played according to the rules. That's what they are there for. Everyone knows what to expect, and you don't look like an asshole when something happens that cannot be sorted without the director, and you have to call her.
#17
Posted 2017-May-15, 09:41
Vampyr, on 2017-May-15, 09:19, said:
So, there is someplace in the World where I wouldn't look like that?
#18
Posted 2017-May-15, 10:20
#19
Posted 2017-May-15, 11:34
Zelandakh, on 2017-May-15, 10:20, said:
I'm happy to join you.
London UK
#20
Posted 2017-May-15, 13:43
Zelandakh, on 2017-May-15, 10:20, said:
I don't think the posters that said the club was "friendly" meant that not sticking to the rules is what makes a friendly game. At least I hope not. When there is any sort of irregularity, players should always summon the director in a cheerful manner, without any ill will toward the alleged offender.
In this case, I think the posters praising the club meant that the way the OP described the players there, they sounded like folks who were always very pleasant and tried to bend over backward to be nice. I'll take that any day over playing vs Negative Nigel and Crabby Cathy.
Cheers,
Mike