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ATB 3NT off while 7C makes

Poll: ATB (29 member(s) have cast votes)

Who is to blame?

  1. All West (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Mostly West (1 votes [3.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.45%

  3. 50-50 (1 votes [3.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.45%

  4. Mostly East (4 votes [13.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.79%

  5. All East (23 votes [79.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 79.31%

  6. No blame, unlucky (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#21 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2016-July-25, 01:34

I blame "MPs". I bet that many more ended in 3NT. So, I will take my 30% score. Next board.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
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#22 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-July-26, 06:15

Some interesting things being said in this thread. First of all, I do not think 3 promises 54 but rather either 5+, 4+ or 6+, 2+. Secondly, surely everyone above club level plays 3 in this auction as some sort of grope? Exactly which hands go through that will vary from pair to pair but for it to be completely natural in combination with standard's jump shift style strikes me as a really bad idea.

On East's rebid options, 3NT strikes me as a really bad idea with so little idea of what partner's hand looks like. 3 on the surface is better but also not without issues. Change 2 to 2 and I suspect most would continue 3NT, which East will pass, once more reaching the terrible 3NT. Sure we are doing slightly better than after 3NT but it is still not ideal. 3 is another good option and possibly the best option for pairs that do not understand gropes. The actual hand illustrates the downside of this nicely though, Opener might well believe partner has a real suit and insist on the Moysian in hearts. Of course 3 without a grope, indeed perhaps even with, should be an either/or bid with Opener being more circumspect. That might work quite well here. Finally, when partner makes a jump shift and we are unsure of the best place to be, the best solution is often to made the next call, a grope. 3 gives Opener the chance to clarify their hand type, hopefully leaving us better placed the next time around. At the very least the lack of a 3 continuation would let us know that the clubs are real, although there is not enough space to identify the red suit position so this is also not exactly a perfect solution.

The truth is that this is a weak area of standard bidding and none of the available solutions can win every case. If you have the agreement that 3 is not necessarily a full (5+) suit then that seems to be the right option here. Lacking that, the ubiquitous 3 grope strikes me as giving us the best chance of getting it right, although I would like this a lot more at IMPs than MPs. 3 is the basic option opposite an unimaginative club level partner but probably ends up giving neither of us enough information to avoid guessing. 3NT is for me the worst of the three level options, forcing us to guess with minimal information. Indeed, I prefer 4 to 3NT even knowing that there are many hands where this would be a disaster.
(-: Zel :-)
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#23 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2016-August-06, 00:34

East 100%. If I could give East more blame, I would. This doesn't even require an explanation.
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#24 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2016-August-06, 00:39

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-July-22, 09:06, said:

I would bid 3 but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4 but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.


Did you forget to bid 2?
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#25 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2016-August-08, 02:21

People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Over 3C east can just raise to 4C. We are never playing 3N, even if I bid 3S and partner bid 3N I would not sit with xxx diamonds that is nuts, I would bid 4C. 3S will be better when the 5-2 spade fit is better than playing in clubs so that is certainly a reasonable bid, but we have a great hand for a club slam and 4C will be the easiest way to get there. Our honor disparity in spades and clubs makes me think that spades will not be better that much more often to get me to bid 3S.
The artist formerly known as jlall
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#26 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-August-08, 05:05

Are you not worried about Opener being 6322 Justin? We have discussed in the past the possibility of an immediate 4 showing 5+ card support and 3 followed by 4 being a 4 card raise. I do not think that is a particularly complicated method and helps with a specific problem on this auction.
(-: Zel :-)
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#27 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2016-August-09, 06:20

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-August-08, 05:05, said:

Are you not worried about Opener being 6322 Justin? We have discussed in the past the possibility of an immediate 4 showing 5+ card support and 3 followed by 4 being a 4 card raise. I do not think that is a particularly complicated method and helps with a specific problem on this auction.


If he has 6322 he will bid 4S and I will pass. I don't see the problem there.
The artist formerly known as jlall
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