[mgoetze]

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At his first turn to bid, South could have overcalled a 15-18 NT or made a takeout double which only promises 3 cards in each major. What do you expect him to have now? Which North hands should leave the double in?

[apollo1201]

Which hand were you😕? Without prior discussion I would guess a good 13 to a bad 15 with clubs over declarer to penalize if they rescue. And some kind of tolerance for S in case the balancing was particularly weak or shapely. Maybe sth like

Qx
AJx
Qxxx
KQTx

Which is a normal pass over 1C.

So, what happenned?

[ggwhiz]

Easts 1nt bid shows 18-19 balanced but obviously they don't have it. I'm putting green and red cards in my lap and playing them as appropriate and don't care what the double shows as they may declare like they bid.

[lycier]

North should trust his partner and pass .
South usually have a 6-card plus minor suit with a A and a K in two of side suits,and usually it is a long ♣ suit.

[broze]

Basically pure penalties. Imo North should always leave the double in unless he doesn't really have his bid. 12-14 balanced that couldn't act over 1C seems like the typical hand.

[Jinksy]

broze, on 2015-December-15, 18:05, said:

Basically pure penalties. Imo North should always leave the double in unless he doesn't really have his bid. 12-14 balanced that couldn't act over 1C seems like the typical hand.

That doesn't seem like pure penalties. I'd expect a lot of 6-counts to balance (and I'd consider it having their bid).

[broze]

Jinksy, on 2015-December-16, 13:28, said:

That doesn't seem like pure penalties. I'd expect a lot of 6-counts to balance (and I'd consider it having their bid).

I think this is just semantics. Let's not forget either that when the opening 18 count plays out of its hand it's less likely to score as well as (say) a 14 count playing opposite a four count. I would expect to beat 1N most of the time with a split deck and sometimes balancer will have a 10 count.

Why, do you think the double means something different? Imo it has to be this (or of course a penalty pass...)

[mgoetze]

It seems weird to me to have the cheapest bid here show a really rare hand type. I consider it quite exceptional to hold a 13-14 point hand that passed over 1♣. But I consider it pretty normal to hold a 10-11 point hand that would like to show some values now. So I thought double should be "do something intelligent, partner" with 10-11 points and, say, 2452 shape. But maybe I'm wrong.

[MrAce]

Double post

[MrAce]

mgoetze, on 2015-December-16, 18:22, said:

It seems weird to me to have the cheapest bid here show a really rare hand type. I consider it quite exceptional to hold a 13-14 point hand that passed over 1♣. But I consider it pretty normal to hold a 10-11 point hand that would like to show some values now. So I thought double should be "do something intelligent, partner" with 10-11 points and, say, 2452 shape. But maybe I'm wrong.

To me most intelligent thing to do with 10-11 hcp and no fit, when opener showed 18-19 balanced, is not to ask pd to do something intelligent. Especially after forgetting to overcall with 10-11 hcp with the shape you suggested ( 2452) over 1♣

Double is penalty for me. Double can be made by hands like

- 13-14 hcp balanced hands
- 15-16 hcp with long clubs which was unable to start 1 NT. Such as x KQx AQx AJT9xx or alike.

[cherdano]

mgoetze, on 2015-December-16, 18:22, said:

It seems weird to me to have the cheapest bid here show a really rare hand type. I consider it quite exceptional to hold a 13-14 point hand that passed over 1♣. But I consider it pretty normal to hold a 10-11 point hand that would like to show some values now. So I thought double should be "do something intelligent, partner" with 10-11 points and, say, 2452 shape. But maybe I'm wrong.

Why is it exceptional to hold 13-14 hcp? It is completely normal to pass with that many values and no 5-card suit, and no shape for a takeout double.
It is certainly more likely than having 10 hcp and five cards in a suit I could have overcalled at the one-level.
In fact, given that we can rule out hands with 3+spades, there are basically no hands with 14 hcp that would act over 1♣, but would pass if you took away a king (but keep the same shape).

Sorry I am complaining about your posts so often but so often I just do not understand where your questions is coming from.

[wank]

You say penalty is a small target but it's a smaller target for partner to have a t/o double. That would involve p having fewer than 3 spades and fewer than 3 clubs but not having an overcall. That means he must have 5 low diamonds. He could bid 2s on a good doubleton. So he's either got all his points as a very chunky doubletob club or an almost solid heart suit (i'm assuming no 4 card heart overcalls vul but if you think he would that removes even more hands).

Xx akxx xxxxx kx or xx kjxx xxxxx aq

[wanoff]

You might look for a penalty with 9 after partner opened and they doubled.
So here I'd look for a penalty with any 11 without spades, since partner may be balancing with 9.

[PhantomSac]

One of the few pure penalty Xs in bridge!