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Disqualification -- what happens to previous results?

#1 User is offline   szgyula 

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Posted 2015-September-01, 02:19

Dear All,

Unfortunately this is not theoretical but did actually happen. In an age restricted tournament the final result was A, B, C and D (pairs tournament). At this point it turns out that pair-A does not meet the requirements to enter the tournament. What is the final result? There are two alternatives:

1. Pair-A is "removed" and the final result is B, C and D.
2. All results of pair-A are removed, scores are recalculated and the final result is C, B and D.

I understand that there are situations where the "what if" question can not be answered, e.g. single ellimination teams. Even here one can argue that just the presence of an extra pair disturbs the dynamic so the "what if" question can not be answered with 100% accuracy, but this is probably as close as it gets. This was a Howell type pairs tournament with even number of pairs (including pair-A). Thus, the exact same boards would have beem played by the exact same people. The only difference is the missing pair vs. pair playing outside the competition. Unfortunately it was not known that results against pair-A are not used to determine the final score so their presence did affect the strategy of players.

I found the EBU WB8.40.4 rule (pairs playing seat and vulnerablility dependent system illegally) as something relevant. This says cancel all results in the round (this was a single round event). This is a general 2007 laws realm and there are no additional relevant regulations.

Any thoughts? If you opt for option 2 (change final result), there is an additional question: How far would you go? There is a wide range between this case and the single ellimination case (no way to reconstruct what would have happened). What about a Swiss tems tournament? You can not change the actual matches but you can calculate the final result with or without the disqualified team. Unfortunately their prenence changed who is pitted agains whom.

Regards,

Gyula
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-September-01, 03:21

If your view is that the A-pair was allowed to play but not elligible for prices then obvious solution 1 is correct and that is what I would prefer.

If your view is that the A-pair was not allowed to play then I am afraid the correct procedure would be 2 although I don't like it since I prefer to let a result count as long as this doesn't create any obvious biases.
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#3 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2015-September-01, 03:28

View Postszgyula, on 2015-September-01, 02:19, said:

Dear All,

Unfortunately this is not theoretical but did actually happen. In an age restricted tournament the final result was A, B, C and D (pairs tournament). At this point it turns out that pair-A does not meet the requirements to enter the tournament. What is the final result? There are two alternatives:

1. Pair-A is "removed" and the final result is B, C and D.
2. All results of pair-A are removed, scores are recalculated and the final result is C, B and D.

I understand that there are situations where the "what if" question can not be answered, e.g. single ellimination teams. Even here one can argue that just the presence of an extra pair disturbs the dynamic so the "what if" question can not be answered with 100% accuracy, but this is probably as close as it gets. This was a Howell type pairs tournament with even number of pairs (including pair-A). Thus, the exact same boards would have beem played by the exact same people. The only difference is the missing pair vs. pair playing outside the competition. Unfortunately it was not known that results against pair-A are not used to determine the final score so their presence did affect the strategy of players.

I found the EBU WB8.40.4 rule (pairs playing seat and vulnerablility dependent system illegally) as something relevant. This says cancel all results in the round (this was a single round event). This is a general 2007 laws realm and there are no additional relevant regulations.

Any thoughts? If you opt for option 2 (change final result), there is an additional question: How far would you go? There is a wide range between this case and the single ellimination case (no way to reconstruct what would have happened). What about a Swiss tems tournament? You can not change the actual matches but you can calculate the final result with or without the disqualified team. Unfortunately their prenence changed who is pitted agains whom.

Regards,

Gyula


FWIW: Our Norwegian (standard) conditions of contest states that while a non-qualified contestant is disqualified and ranked last in the event, all results obtained against this contestant normally stand. So we apply your alternative 1.
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#4 User is offline   szgyula 

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Posted 2015-September-01, 04:47

View Posthelene_t, on 2015-September-01, 03:21, said:

If your view is that the A-pair was allowed to play but not elligible for prices then obvious solution 1 is correct and that is what I would prefer.

If your view is that the A-pair was not allowed to play then I am afraid the correct procedure would be 2 although I don't like it since I prefer to let a result count as long as this doesn't create any obvious biases.

Pair-A was not allowed to play, i.e. they did not meet the reuirements to enter the tournament. E.g. a 40 years old entering a senior tournament (the actual situation is a bit more complicated -- the age difference must be 20 years or more, the actual difference was 18).
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#5 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2015-September-01, 07:40

View Postszgyula, on 2015-September-01, 04:47, said:

Pair-A was not allowed to play, i.e. they did not meet the reuirements to enter the tournament. E.g. a 40 years old entering a senior tournament (the actual situation is a bit more complicated -- the age difference must be 20 years or more, the actual difference was 18).

I think the correct term is whether A was "qualified" to play, and I understand that he was not.

Usually a contestant must hold membership in some recognized organization and have paid an entry fee to be qualified for playing in a particular event.
In addition there can be other criteria like sex (events for women or for mixed pairs), age (events for juniors or seniors) or masterpoint rating (events for beginners) and so on. I understand that in your case it was the age.

But once a contestant has been found not qualified to play in an event the actual failing criterion is usually immaterial, what is important is the relevant regulation and/or condition of Contest.
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#6 User is offline   szgyula 

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Posted 2015-September-01, 22:21

View Postpran, on 2015-September-01, 07:40, said:

I think the correct term is whether A was "qualified" to play, and I understand that he was not.

Usually a contestant must hold membership in some recognized organization and have paid an entry fee to be qualified for playing in a particular event.
In addition there can be other criteria like sex (events for women or for mixed pairs), age (events for juniors or seniors) or masterpoint rating (events for beginners) and so on. I understand that in your case it was the age.

But once a contestant has been found not qualified to play in an event the actual failing criterion is usually immaterial, what is important is the relevant regulation and/or condition of Contest.

There is no relevant CoC as to what should happen in this case. Pair-A would not have qualified to enter the tournament (age restriction) but this became known only after the fact. What should happen to the table results where they were involved? Scrapped or kept? Again, there is nothing relevant in CoC. Pair-A should not win, but what about the tournament?
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#7 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2015-September-02, 01:17

View Postszgyula, on 2015-September-01, 22:21, said:

There is no relevant CoC as to what should happen in this case. Pair-A would not have qualified to enter the tournament (age restriction) but this became known only after the fact. What should happen to the table results where they were involved? Scrapped or kept? Again, there is nothing relevant in CoC. Pair-A should not win, but what about the tournament?

Well, our Norwegian bridge federation has a comprehensive regulation covering most aspects of any kind of their bridge events. This is considered applicable also to any event in subordinate bodies and is used unless these have their own applicable regulation (or CoC).

I did quote the relevant rule on cases like OP, and this rule is that all table results obtained against a contestant that is disqualified for not having been qualified in an event shall normally stand. (OP alternative 1).

Missing any kind of such regulations in your area can certainly lead to a problem, and then there is no obvious answer.
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#8 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2015-September-02, 08:40

Solution 1 feels closer to what happens in some similar situations -- the ACBL, for instance, allows you to add one non-novice to a novice game to fill out the movement, but not to award him any masterpoints. (And when a small number of same-sex pairs get put into a Mixed Pairs when it is the only event available so they don't have to go home, they usually still remain eligibile for masterpoints.)

The only time I have used Solution 2 was when I discovered that the person the club manager had hired to prepare the hands for a multi-site game with hand records was playing in the event: the "no score may stand if a contestant has previously played a board" was the closest thing I found in the regulations to that situation.
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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-September-02, 15:54

View PostSiegmund, on 2015-September-02, 08:40, said:

Solution 1 feels closer to what happens in some similar situations -- the ACBL, for instance, allows you to add one non-novice to a novice game to fill out the movement, but not to award him any masterpoints. (And when a small number of same-sex pairs get put into a Mixed Pairs when it is the only event available so they don't have to go home, they usually still remain eligibile for masterpoints.)


Yes, retroactively playing without standing seems the best and simplest solution; the pair don't receive a trophy or any prizes. I should have thought that the same applied to masterpoints, if this was a masterpointed event.

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The only time I have used Solution 2 was when I discovered that the person the club manager had hired to prepare the hands for a multi-site game with hand records was playing in the event: the "no score may stand if a contestant has previously played a board" was the closest thing I found in the regulations to that situation.


Here it is always normal for the person who prepared the hands and printed the hand records to play in the event. It would never occur to us to wonder whether such person peeked at any hands.
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#10 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2015-September-02, 18:44

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Here it is always normal for the person who prepared the hands and printed the hand records to play in the event. It would never occur to us to wonder whether such person peeked at any hands.


This was before dealing machines: the person had physically sorted and dealt all the hands. (For a 5-table game, having people duplicate the cards onsite before the first round, and play one less round, was not desirable. Usually we paid someone's grandson $10 to do it, but this time it was a novice player who was "sure she wouldn't remember any of the hands the next day.")

We do let the people who operate the dealing machine and print out the summary sheets play.




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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-September-02, 20:17

View PostSiegmund, on 2015-September-02, 18:44, said:

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This was before dealing machines: the person had physically sorted and dealt all the hands. (For a 5-table game, having people duplicate the cards onsite before the first round, and play one less round, was not desirable. Usually we paid someone's grandson $10 to do it, but this time it was a novice player who was "sure she wouldn't remember any of the hands the next day.")

We do let the people who operate the dealing machine and print out the summary sheets play.






If she was a novice, and especially if she dealt the hands face-down, it is quite possible that she would not have remembered them!
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#12 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2015-September-03, 01:08

View PostSiegmund, on 2015-September-02, 18:44, said:

Usually we paid someone's grandson $10 to do it, but this time it was a novice player who was "sure she wouldn't remember any of the hands the next day.")


I've played with players who couldn't remember their own cards, let alone the other 3 hands, a minute after the hand was over.
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#13 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2015-September-03, 01:26

View Posthelene_t, on 2015-September-01, 03:21, said:

If your view is that the A-pair was not allowed to play then I am afraid the correct procedure would be 2 although I don't like it since I prefer to let a result count as long as this doesn't create any obvious biases.


The bias is that the ineligible player skewed the results compared to the results if they were not allowed to play IMO. In the absence of any specific condition of contest, I like option 2 because it seems to be the fairest from my point of view, but this could cause some scoring difficulties if everybody has not played them so a different number of boards are played. I guess you just factor up the scores for the boards thrown out in a MP event.

Knockouts is a problem , say A beat B, and C beat D in the semis. I would declare B and C co-champions. Of course, everybody who lost to A in the previous rounds can say they would have won if they hadn't lost to an ineligible team, so maybe the team A beat in the quarter finals can also be declared as the co-champion.
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#14 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-September-03, 01:33

I don't think it creates any bias other than what you always have in movements with less than perfect balance. As long as the results obtained against the pair in question are realistic bridge results. It would be different if they were found to be cheating or if they had been playing illegal methods. Or, of course, if they had been dumping. In that case I would favour throwing out the results.
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-September-03, 03:17

View Postszgyula, on 2015-September-01, 02:19, said:

I found the EBU WB8.40.4 rule (pairs playing seat and vulnerablility dependent system illegally) as something relevant.

Is this not covered by 8.80.4 rather than 8.40.4 in England?
(-: Zel :-)
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#16 User is offline   szgyula 

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Posted 2015-September-03, 10:18

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-September-03, 03:17, said:

Is this not covered by 8.80.4 rather than 8.40.4 in England?

Not 100%. Disqualification is penalty for doing something inappropriate. Before the offending action, the player is a normal player, thus, boards before the action were normal boards.
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#17 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-September-03, 16:49

View Postszgyula, on 2015-September-03, 10:18, said:

Not 100%. Disqualification is penalty for doing something inappropriate. Before the offending action, the player is a normal player, thus, boards before the action were normal boards.

Are you sure about that? Take a look at page 44 and read note 17.
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#18 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2015-September-03, 19:10

Is it my imagination, or is the White Book getting longer? B-)
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#19 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2015-September-04, 01:23

View Postblackshoe, on 2015-September-03, 19:10, said:

Is it my imagination, or is the White Book getting longer? B-)

In 2012 it was 224 pages long. Since then it's been 154, 156 & 155 pages long. So it's your imagination :)
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#20 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2015-September-04, 06:53

View Postgordontd, on 2015-September-04, 01:23, said:

In 2012 it was 224 pages long. Since then it's been 154, 156 & 155 pages long. So it's your imagination :)

Okay. :P
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