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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#3961 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 13:38

View Postmikeh, on 2016-December-29, 13:07, said:

IMO, the main problem with the idiocies such as the pizzagate child-sex ring story isn't the story itself. A few truly stupid people may fall for it but even most stupid people won't.

The problem is that it gives cover to the other, more dangerous, notions out there by allowing people such as Kaitlyn to claim to the world, and to themselves, that they aren't total whackjobs, because they don't believe this at all (unless, as K says, there is strong evidence!). No...they don't believe (well, not until the proof is there) that HRC ran a childsex ring out of a pizza joint. So they are obviously rational people.

Instead, they spout nonsense about HRC's hidden agenda to ban guns, and to create a socialist country, and so on. Their bizarre beliefs are just as unsupported by evidence as was pizzagate, but they sound almost normal, compared to pizzagate.

The point of the truly outlandish stories isn't to get people to believe them: it is to move the goalposts in such a way that almost-as-bizarre ideas start to appear middle-of-the-road.

We are in real danger of this becoming ever more present. Trump is going to be normalized. We can and should resist this, but it is already happening and he hasn't even come into office yet.

The more his brand of lying, deceit, bragging, pandering to racism and misogyny becomes 'normal', the harder it will be to prevent this becoming the new American way of life. We have to see how the worst lies are not just silly lies....they are a means of moving the boundaries of what is 'normal'.


And this is a main reason how this normalization occurs:

Quote

Donald Trump Tricks The Media Into Crediting Him For Creating More U.S. Jobs
In fact, those jobs were already created. And not by him.


Quote

President-elect Donald Trump took credit Wednesday for bringing a total of 8,000 jobs to the U.S., when those jobs were part of a previously announced commitment that there’s no evidence Trump was involved in.


How we perceive reality is the key.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#3962 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 15:49

From Bibi Netanyahu Makes Trump His Chump by Thomas Friedman

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For those of you confused over the latest fight between President Obama and Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu of Israel, let me make it simple: Barack Obama and John Kerry admire and want to preserve Israel as a Jewish and democratic state in the Land of Israel. I have covered this issue my entire adult life and have never met two U.S. leaders more committed to Israel as a Jewish democracy.

But they are convinced — rightly — that Netanyahu is a leader who is forever dog paddling in the middle of the Rubicon, never ready to cross it. He is unwilling to make any big, hard decision to advance or preserve a two-state solution if that decision in any way risks his leadership of Israel’s right-wing coalition or forces him to confront the Jewish settlers, who relentlessly push Israel deeper and deeper into the West Bank.

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#3963 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 17:14

View Postkenberg, on 2016-December-28, 09:25, said:

We have to get this right. My seventeen year old grandson goes to a good school in a good area taking AP this and AP that. Far more than what I had any access to and that's wonderful. This part of our education scene is very good. But we have to educate others as well. This part needs work. And it has to be solved without ruining the good stuff for my grandson or the kids who will come later. I wish us luck. I will treat a good idea as a good idea, wherever it comes from.

You had a very thoughtful post that really needs no comment.

I just wanted to concur with your last thought that getting the education problem solved is critical for America's future. For everyone, but especially for underprivileged kids, getting a good education is vital. Hopefully, it enables everyone to take the next step up the ladder in our society. Without it, it'll be nearly impossible to break the cycle of poverty and dependency that puts the underprivileged in.
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#3964 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 18:03

View Postmikeh, on 2016-December-28, 11:36, said:

A major problem with any voucher system, whether it be in education or health care (which Ryan is apparently promoting) is that the system requires a knowledgeable or interested end user.

Many parents lack the knowledge and/or the interest to be able to make a good, informed decision about where to send their kids. For every kid sent by a concerned parent to a 'good' school, you are going to get kids who are sent to a bad school on purpose or to a bad school through neglect.

On purpose? Yes. Devos' public utterances make it clear that she sees the use of vouchers as a way to push kids into overtly religious training grounds. While many Americans are (rightly, imo) horrified at Islamic madrassas, they seem ready to embrace Xian equivalents, all in the name of choice. So the religious people will send their children to learn superstition and myth instead of reality. Good luck with that in a few generations.

And the uneducated, or ill-informed, or simply neglectful parents won't take steps to become informed and so their children will end up as the dregs....doomed to horrible schools.

You know, the US likes to proclaim itself as the land of the free, and as a country where everyone is treated equally. It's never been true but the trend has, historically, been in the right direction. That is about to change, bigly. Vouchers are going to be a disaster, especially since they will, it seems, be used to create business opportunities for the unscrupulous and not opportunity for children.

Imo, there are solutions to at least some of the US's educational problems, but they would be massively unpopular with those who tend to vote. Delink school funding from local taxation. Pay teachers more. Increase the resources to schools in the worst economic areas, so that the schools where kids have a poor environment out of school have a good environment in school.

Here is an idea I have long thought would be wonderful: require that ALL elected officials with school age kids send their kids to public schools. No private school for the children of any elected official. Want to bet that school funding improves? Ok, I am being delusional.

I don't buy this whole "parents are too dumb or disinterested to make a good decision for their kids" argument. The biggest complaint parents in impoverished areas have is about the quality of their schools. They want a good education for their kids like everyone else. There are also ample examples of parents examples of parents' going to extraordinary efforts to get their kids into good schools. There was a documentary out a couple years ago "Waiting for Superman" (and available on DVD) that showed what one single parent went through to try to get her son into a Charter school. It also talks about some of the problems that plague our public education system. I think it's something everyone interested in our education system should see and reflect on. You may not agree with everything it asserts, but, at least, it's a starting point for discussion.
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#3965 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 21:35

View Postdiana_eva, on 2016-December-29, 05:41, said:

He is not "alleged" to have done something. He admitted to having done what Mike said.

AFAIR, Jonottowa disputed some of MikeH's claims but I accept he tried to justify what he'd done. I don't defend his actions or opinions.

View Postdiana_eva, on 2016-December-29, 05:41, said:

FWIW breaking another user's personal privacy (especially for destructive purposes!) is against the Forum rules, if simple common sense doesn't seem enough for you. Jon was called out for the things he posted because people like him are a real danger to society. Not in global, abstract, terms, in immediate terms. Someone reads Jon's theories and shows up with a gun at his Muslim neighbor's door for instance. This isn't about political correctness or freedom of speech, all it takes is a brainwashed moron and a gun to cause an instant tragedy. Can anyone with half neuron sit around and think "it's not nice to tell this guy he's a crazy hateful lunatic"?

"Called out" is a euphemism. For example, Jonottowa is not an "idiot". It's also unfair to label the guy a "crazy hateful lunatic". Especially when he's banned from defending himself.

Such language is inflammatory and not the way to "win friends and influence people".

Jonottowa's arguments were unlikely to persuade BBF members to turn up at their neighbour's door with a gun. Although, admittedly, freedom of speech is not without risk :)
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#3966 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 22:27

View Postnige1, on 2016-December-29, 21:35, said:

AFAIR, Jonottowa disputed some of MikeH's claims but I accept he tried to justify what he'd done. I don't defend his actions or opinions.


"Called out" is a euphemism. For example, Jonottowa is not an "idiot". It's also unfair to label the guy a "crazy hateful lunatic". Especially when he's banned from defending himself.

Such language is inflammatory and not the way to "win friends and influence people".

In contrast, Jonottowa's arguments were unlikely to persuade BBF members to turn up at their neighbour's door with a gun. Although, admittedly, freedom of speech is not without risk :)


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#3967 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 23:01

I enjoyed reading the Coates essay cherdano posted. I remember feeling some of the euphoria Coates describes on Inauguration Day 2009: "seeing Barack and Michelle Obama, their car slow-dragging down Pennsylvania Avenue, the crowd cheering, and then the two of them rising up out of the limo, rising up from fear, smiling, waving, defying despair, defying history, defying gravity" which for him marked the beginning of the only time he has ever felt proud of his country. Inauguration Day 2017 is going to feel like a wake for me. I can't imagine what it will feel like for Coates.

Can't argue with his assertion that racism was "an explanatory force" in the 2016 election. He does not say "the explanatory force" although he strongly implies it. If I had to pick one explanation, it would be the failure by Obama to do more for the 5 million workers who lost their jobs in the manufacturing trades between 2000 and 2014 and by Clinton to address this head-on in her campaign strategy. Those workers aren't more or less racist than they were 16 years ago but they are understandably a lot more impatient for someone to do something on their behalf which is not easy to do and which Trump seems unlikely to do.
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#3968 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-December-29, 23:32

View Posty66, on 2016-December-29, 23:01, said:

I enjoyed reading the Coates essay cherdano posted. I remember feeling some of the euphoria Coates describes on Inauguration Day 2009: "seeing Barack and Michelle Obama, their car slow-dragging down Pennsylvania Avenue, the crowd cheering, and then the two of them rising up out of the limo, rising up from fear, smiling, waving, defying despair, defying history, defying gravity" which for him marked the beginning of the only time he has ever felt proud of his country. Inauguration Day 2017 is going to feel like a wake for me. I can't imagine what it will feel like for Coates.

Can't argue with his assertion that racism was "an explanatory force" in the 2016 election. He does not say "the explanatory force" although he strongly implies it. If I had to pick one explanation, it would be the failure by Obama to do more for the 5 million workers who lost their jobs in the manufacturing trades between 2000 and 2014 and by Clinton to address this head-on in her campaign strategy. Those workers aren't more or less racist than they were 16 years ago but they are understandably a lot more impatient for someone to do something on their behalf which is not easy to do and which Trump seems unlikely to do.

In this regard, Van Jones, the CNN commentator who called the election a "Whitelash", had a very interesting town hall forum on CNN called "The Messy Truth". He went to Ohio to talk with some Trump voters who were Democrats and showed the film of that as part of the town hall. It certainly changed his opinion to some extent as to what happened. He concluded "We've been talking past each other." during that visit. He also had conservative Rick Santorum, Ana Navarro, and (at the end) Michael Moore on for their comments. He and Navarro asked Santorum some tough questions that I'm not sure Santorum answered well. Michael Moore went on one of his rants at the end, but overall interesting nonetheless.

I noticed recently it was available on my cable system, Xfinity, still had it available on Xfinity On Demand under CNN Specials. I think it's a good thing for everyone to see if you can to better understand what happened.
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#3969 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 04:18

View Postrmnka447, on 2016-December-29, 18:03, said:

I don't buy this whole "parents are too dumb or disinterested to make a good decision for their kids" argument. The biggest complaint parents in impoverished areas have is about the quality of their schools. They want a good education for their kids like everyone else.


Many people think that the Moral Majority and other activist conservative Christian groups were founded because of their opposition to abortion.
In fact, their genesis was opposition to school integration.

I am quite sure that parents want to be able to make choices regarding how their children are educated. However, I don't think that the quality of the education system is their primary concern. Rather, they want

1. To isolate their children from interacting with blacks
2. To indoctrinate their children with a specific set of religious and social values

I grew up in Poughkeepsie New York

A few years before I entered the school system, Spackenkill splintered their school district off from the city of Poughkeepsie specifically to avoid mixing the races.

"School choice" is a politically more acceptable version of the same thing...
Alderaan delenda est
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#3970 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 06:24

View Postrmnka447, on 2016-December-29, 17:14, said:

I just wanted to concur with your last thought that getting the education problem solved is critical for America's future.

Morally sure but economically? Really? It is a lot cheaper to allow other countries to do the education and then import them as a resource. The US has been doing this for longer than I have been alive and it is an effective strategy. And there is no shortage of skilled and unskilled workers wanting to move there. That an underclass has developed causes some issues in society but would that group growing still further be "critical" when there are more than enough well-educated workers to drive the economy? Probably not.

(Note: I am not advocating such a policy but I daresay such thinking has taken place in some quarters.)
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#3971 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 09:01

From The year of the demagogue: how 2016 changed democracy by Lionel Barber:

Quote

On the morning of June 21, two days before the Brexit referendum, I met David Cameron in Downing Street. During a 25-minute conversation, the prime minister assured me that everything would be all right on the night. I wasn’t entirely convinced.

In hindsight, Brexit defined 2016. This was the year when the unthinkable became possible, the marginal invaded the mainstream, and Donald Trump, a property tycoon and television host, was elevated to US commander-in-chief.

In his memoir Present at the Creation (1969), Dean Acheson, a former US secretary of state, describes how he and fellow “Wise Men” helped President Harry Truman to build a new liberal, rule-based order after the second world war. It was founded on institutions: the UN, the IMF, the World Bank and the Nato alliance.

In 2016, as Trump dismissed Nato as “obsolete” and his consigliere Newt Gingrich described Estonia as a suburb of St Petersburg, it felt at times as if we were present at the destruction.

Acheson epitomised the East Coast establishment. He was a diplomat, lawyer and scholar — an expert, if you like. This year, the establishment was hammered, the experts humbled. Most missed Brexit. Many declared a Trump victory impossible. Michael Gove, a leading Brexiter, caught the public mood: “People in this country have had enough of experts.”

Brexit and the Trump triumph mark a revolutionary moment. Not quite 1789 or 1989, but certainly a thundering repudiation of the status quo. Some detect echoes of the 1930s, with Trump cast as an incipient fascist.

It was a good year for strongmen: Vladimir Putin in Russia; Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey; Xi Jinping, now promoted to “core” leader in China. It was an even better year for demagogues, the crowd-pleasers and rabble-rousers who feed on emotions and prejudice. In the year of the demagogue, several vied for the lead role: Nigel Farage, then Ukip leader, godfather of Brexit and Trump acolyte; Rodrigo Duterte, a brutal newcomer to power, who pledged to slaughter millions of drug addicts to clean up the Philippines; and Trump himself, who constantly marvelled at the size of his crowds.

Yet the 1930s analogy is in many ways misplaced. We are nowhere near a Great Depression. The US economy is approaching full employment. The pre-Brexit UK economy has seen employment rise by just over two million since 2010. Credit is flowing. Corporate profits are up. The trouble is that swaths of the population, often those living outside the great cities, have little sense of the economic recovery.

Real incomes in the UK have not grown for the past decade. In the US, 95 per cent of households still had incomes last year that were below those in 2007, according to the Economic Policy Institute think-tank. In Europe, unemployment in the eurozone, especially in countries such as Greece, Spain and Italy, remains high. Yet the wealth of the top one per cent (“the privileged few”, to borrow Theresa May’s mantra) has continued to rise.

Something more profound is happening in advanced democracies. The forces at work are cultural, economic, social and political, driven in part by rapid technological change. Artificial intelligence, gene editing, self-driving cars — progress on all these groundbreaking technologies accelerated in 2016. Each is massively empowering (the smartphone has given everyone a voice) but also massively disruptive (the impact of artificial intelligence on jobs has barely begun to be felt).

In political terms, Brexit and the Trump triumph highlight the decline of the party system and the end of the old left/right divide. The centre-left appears in terminal decline. This month, François Hollande, whose approval rating hit a low of 4 per cent, ruled out a second run for the Elysée. Jeremy Corbyn, the hard-left leader of the opposition Labour party, had more to say about the death of Fidel Castro than Britain departing the EU. Matteo Renzi, the centre-left reformer in Italy, lost heavily in his own referendum on constitutional reform and promptly resigned.

The Conservative or Christian Democrat centre-right fared better but remains under pressure from an anti-immigrant, nationalist fringe, from Austria to England, France, Germany, Hungary, the Netherlands and, increasingly, Poland. In 2016, we witnessed the birth of the “Fourth Way” — a new brand of politics that is nativist, protectionist and bathed in a cultural nostalgia captured by Trump’s pledge to “Make America Great Again”.

The second development is a widespread disillusion among western democracies with globalisation, the postwar phenomenon marked by three trends: the Roaring Eighties deregulation of the Reagan-Thatcher era; the 1994 Uruguay Round agreement on global trade liberalisation; and the opening of a market economy in China. The progressive abandonment of controls on capital, goods, services and labour, epitomised by the launch of the single European market and the single currency, reached its apogee in the summer of 2007. In 2016, we saw, finally, that this period — call it Globalisation 2.0 — is over.

Free trade has become ever harder to sell to a public worried about job security and the competitive threat from developing countries. Trump denounced the Trans-Pacific Partnership pact between the US and 11 Pacific Rim countries, and the North American Free Trade Agreement with Canada and Mexico. Hillary Clinton, once a free trader, caved. No one countered that the US consumer, including many Trump voters, bought cheap goods at Target and Walmart thanks to efficient global supply chains and cheap labour in the developing world. Hostility to free trade was a vote winner. Only last-minute arm-twisting of the Walloon regional government in Belgium salvaged a Canada-EU trade pact seven years in the making.

Free movement is also in question. Europe has experienced mass migration on a scale not seen since the late 1940s. In 2016, the refugee flow from the Middle East and north Africa was stemmed at one end thanks to a German-brokered deal with Turkey but record numbers travelled (and drowned) on the treacherous route from the central Mediterranean to Italy. Terror attacks, notably in France, heightened public insecurity about immigrants. There was a sense governments had somehow lost control, of national borders and national identity.

This explains the power of Trump’s pledge to build a “beautiful” wall on the Mexican border, and Theresa May’s conference jibe about politically correct multiculturalism: “If you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere.” The party faithful in Birmingham cheered but cosmopolitan London, home to hundreds of thousands of “foreigners”, including Mark Carney, the Canadian governor of the Bank of England, was not amused.

The Brexit referendum exposed an economic gap between winners and losers of globalisation; but also a cultural divide between those comfortable with the pace of change, from technology to same-sex marriage, and those wanting to slow down the clock and rediscover their roots in ethnicity, religion or nationality.

Leave’s slogan in the Brexit campaign, “Take Back Control”, was simple and brilliantly effective across classes and generations. Constitutionalists liked the idea of regaining sovereignty from EU institutions. Everyone liked the idea of reclaiming money from Brussels and diverting the savings to the NHS. Clamping down on immigration was a vote-winner. No matter that these claims were deeply misleading (as were Remain’s claims of imminent economic disaster in the event of a Brexit vote). Throughout the year, facts were elastic concepts.

In 2016, the world woke up to “fake news”, sponsored by political activists but also increasingly by state actors and their surrogates. The CIA accused Russia of being behind the leaking of emails from the Democratic National Committee, a shocking, brazen attempt to interfere in a US presidential election. Trump dismissed the claims as ridiculous, as did his supporters. Throughout this political cycle, many appeared to live in a parallel universe where facts were entirely subjugated to opinion.

Scottie Nell Hughes, a Trump supporter and CNN commentator, explained: “So one thing that’s been interesting this entire campaign season to watch, is that people that say facts are facts — they’re not really facts. Everybody has a way — it’s kind of like looking at ratings, or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not truth. There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts.”

Welcome to the world of post-truth politics, turbocharged by technology such as the smartphone. A single device allows individuals to project in real time an unfiltered version of the news and (often highly partisan) views across Facebook, Google and Twitter. In the US election, journalists, once enjoying a degree of trust as the filter of last resort, were howled down or singled out on Twitter as “disgusting” or “lame”.

In the UK, both Leave and Remain regularly lambasted the BBC, which tried to remain neutral. Timothy Garton Ash, the Oxford historian, warned presciently about the risks of “fairness bias”. The danger was that the BBC, in seeking to remain impartial, would fail to be informative, especially on complex economic issues. “You give equal airtime to unequal arguments, without daring to say that, on this or that point, one side has more evidence, or a significantly larger body of expert opinion, than the other,” he wrote.

The Trump campaign presented “mainstream media” with a challenge on a different scale. His demagoguery broke every taboo in the book, casting Mexicans as “rapists”, eliding the difference between traditional Muslims and radical Islamic terrorists, and threatening to jail his Democratic opponent.

The TV networks, especially Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News, gave Trump far more airtime than other candidates. “It may not be good for America, but it’s damn good for CBS,” quipped Les Moonves, head of the media group.

Trump won by attacking the Republican party as much as his Democratic opponent. He spent hardly any of his own money, less than a fraction of the Clinton campaign’s war chest. His was the triumph of the brand.

Yet Clinton was a deeply flawed candidate at a moment when Americans wanted change — not a continuation of the Obama presidency by other means or a return to the Bush or Clinton dynasties. She had sky-high negative ratings, just like Trump. She was not liked, she was not trusted, and she was evasive. “Crooked Hillary”, Trump’s signature tweet, stuck for a good reason.

In this respect, it is misleading to suggest that the typical Trump supporter was an angry white man on opioids from West Virginia. Educated people voted for Trump. Women voted for Trump. As Salena Zito wrote in The Atlantic, Trump’s supporters took him seriously but not literally. By contrast, liberals, including the media, took Trump literally but not seriously. What this ignores is the damage the tycoon may have inflicted on public trust in American democracy. He coarsened civic discourse. He declared the political system corrupt. He even cast doubt on the legitimacy of the election not once but twice, declining to confirm he would accept the result if he lost.

In the late spring of 2016, I travelled to Houston, Texas, to have lunch with James Baker, a former Treasury secretary, US secretary of state and White House chief of staff under Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. I asked him whether America could survive a Trump presidency. “We are a country of laws, limited by bureaucracy. Presidents are not unilateral rulers,” Baker replied.

This confidence in the power of democratic institutions will be tested in the coming months. Trump wants to undo Obama’s legacy and unleash the animal spirits of American capitalism. The initial reaction in the stock market bordered on euphoric. Foreign policy is the bigger risk. Trump wants to pursue an America First foreign policy, renegotiating trade pacts and obliging allies to pay more for their collective defence. His world is about money not values: America the selfish superpower, as Robert Kagan has described it.

Trump’s victory gives succour to the demagogues-in-waiting in 2017, notably Marine Le Pen, who will almost certainly make it through to the run-off for the French presidency. A win for Le Pen on top of Brexit would surely spell the end of the European Union. Elections in the Netherlands may also signal a shift to the right. Even in Germany, Angela Merkel, running for a fourth term, faces a challenge from the populist right in the form of Alternative für Deutschland, which will make the task of forming a ruling coalition much harder.

Trump’s foreign policy, assuming action follows words, also leaves the door wide open for the rising power of China. His abandonment of the TPP — a geopolitical building block as well as a trade pact — has unsettled Japan and Pacific neighbours. His anti-Mexican rhetoric has undermined the peso and left Latin Americans wondering whether Beijing is a safer bet. Among the Baltic states and Scandinavia, many are fretting about Nato’s defence guarantee in the face of Russian aggrandisement under Putin.

For more than two centuries, the US has served as a beacon for democratic values such as pluralism, tolerance and the rule of law. For the most part, it has been on the right side of history. In 2016, Americans for the first time voted into the White House a man with no previous government or military experience. Like Brexit, it was a high-risk gamble with utterly unpredictable consequences.

Trump’s winner-takes-all approach and his lack of respect for minority rights violates a cornerstone of democracy and free society, as set out in the 10th of the Federalist Papers written by James Madison, one of the founding fathers. His position mirrors the more extreme Brexiter demands that the “will of the people” be respected at all costs. Anyone who raises objections — the media, the opposition or, indeed, the judiciary — risks being branded “enemies of the people”.

This is not merely populism run rampant. It is a denial of politics itself, which, as the late scholar Bernard Crick reminds us, is the only alternative to government by coercion and the tyranny of the majority.

We have been warned.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#3972 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 10:02

Oh man....
I suggest mods change the title of this topic to "Has BBF Been Trumped?" Posted Image
It sure looks like so..
I mean I want at least Awm, MikeH,Cherdano,Kaitlyn,Hrothgar,Winstonm back to bridge section.....please? Posted Image
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#3973 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 11:02

View PostMrAce, on 2016-December-30, 10:02, said:

Oh man....
I suggest mods change the title of this topic to "Has BBF Been Trumped?" Posted Image
It sure looks like so..
I mean I want at least Awm, MikeH,Cherdano,Kaitlyn,Hrothgar,Winstonm back to bridge section.....please? Posted Image


Some things (very few, IMO) are even more important than bridge. :unsure:
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#3974 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 11:27

View PostWinstonm, on 2016-December-30, 11:02, said:

Some things (very few, IMO) are even more important than bridge. :unsure:


That is true.

But when one does all of this in a bridge site, where the number of readers are very limited, where the huge majority of debaters are on same side and where the opposing view is not being expressed by smart replies, I tend to have hard time to be convinced that they are doing this because they think it is very important or more important than bridge.

I agree with Richard that it is active duty of all of us to confront racism and similar idiocies. But I also think one is probably fooling him/herself if he/she believes they done their active duty in WC of BBF vs less than 5 people. In fact, I think they work against their active duty by simply arguing in a style where it makes the opposing view stick to each other even tighter and stronger than before. Making a point is important, I agree. Repeating the same point on and on and on, despite knowing that opposing individuals clearly shown no signs of understanding it or trying to understand, is not a confrontation. It is something else and definitely serves to other purposes than the active duty, which I will not name.
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#3975 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 13:04

View PostMrAce, on 2016-December-30, 10:02, said:

Oh man....
I suggest mods change the title of this topic to "Has BBF Been Trumped?" Posted Image
It sure looks like so..
I mean I want at least Awm, MikeH,Cherdano,Kaitlyn,Hrothgar,Winstonm back to bridge section.....please? Posted Image
Thanks for the wake up call, Timo! I found with horror that my most common forum is the Water Cooler and that just isn't right, and I was about to reply to Richard's education post and that would have probably led to another dozen or so posts here.

Hopefully soon you will see my most common forum is the B/N forum again.
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#3976 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 17:43

View Postkenberg, on 2016-December-28, 09:25, said:


School choice for all? How would this work? I have modest direct experience, in two very different ways. becky and her sister: Becky, my wife, went to Lowell High in SF. She had to take an exam, or get recommendations, or both, to get in. She had a fairly long trip in via BART.

I'm a San Francisco native. Why would anyone(living in San Francisco) take BART to Lowell??? BART's closest stop to Lowell is over one mile away. Natives would take MUNI.
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#3977 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 18:15

View Postjogs, on 2016-December-30, 17:43, said:

I'm a San Francisco native. Why would anyone(living in San Francisco) take BART to Lowell??? BART's closest stop to Lowell is over one mile away. Natives would take MUNI.


I just checked. I was in error.

It was walk to bus, bus to streetcar, streetcar to bus, bus to Lowell. Time, as she recalls, somewhere between an hour an an hour and a half. She lived near Twin Peaks, over the hill from Haight Ashbury, she says. Since she was born in 1947, this all was mostly before Haight-Ashbury was Haight-Asbhury, so to speak.

So right idea, but wrong on the BART detail.

Anyway, my point was that providing access to a better school has its good points, but providing a decent school nearby is much better. The shorter travel time is good, and it is good to have friends living nearby going to the same school. This latter is particularly important at the elementary school level.
My high school was probably twenty, possibly twenty-five, walking minutes away, the elementary school about three minutes away. I am not really claiming that the time I saved was used poring over A Tale of Two Cities, studying history or reading whatever we were supposed to be, but weren't, reading, but still an hour plus in each direction is a lot of down time. Surely for the kids, and also for the parents if they must provide transportation.

Of course not all schools can be the best school, but we can do better than what we are doing by quite a bit I think.And without going across town to do it.
Ken
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#3978 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2016-December-30, 21:47

I was thinking about the deteriorating education levels in the US. How to improve them in the midst of all the political crap. How about this:

  • Establish a national high school competency test
  • Hire the Scholastic Aptitude Test people to administer the test
  • Require all colleges and universities to accept the competency test passage in lieu of a high school diploma


This would allow families to home teach, use alternative schools, etc. The competition would cause the educational establishment to improve.

No service provider (teachers, teachers' unions) likes competition so there would be howls and gnashing of teeth. But external competition is about the only thing that causes calcified institutions to change.
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#3979 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2016-December-31, 05:08

View Postldrews, on 2016-December-30, 21:47, said:

I was thinking about the deteriorating education levels in the US. How to improve them in the midst of all the political crap. How about this:

  • Establish a national high school competency test
  • Hire the Scholastic Aptitude Test people to administer the test
  • Require all colleges and universities to accept the competency test passage in lieu of a high school diploma


This would allow families to home teach, use alternative schools, etc. The competition would cause the educational establishment to improve.

No service provider (teachers, teachers' unions) likes competition so there would be howls and gnashing of teeth. But external competition is about the only thing that causes calcified institutions to change.

This is what happens in many other countries in the world:

At the end of elementary school the kids undergo a nation wide test. This provides stats on how the school is doing.
At the end of high school, the kids have their nation wide standardized final exam. This provides stats on the school and it serves as the entrance key to colleges nation wide.

But, of course, this will require a national agency to prepare these tests and a centrally coordinated system to evaluate them. Unfortunately, "national agency" and "centrally coordinated" are four letter words in American.

Rik
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#3980 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-December-31, 08:22

View PostTrinidad, on 2016-December-31, 05:08, said:

This is what happens in many other countries in the world:

At the end of elementary school the kids undergo a nation wide test. This provides stats on how the school is doing.
At the end of high school, the kids have their nation wide standardized final exam. This provides stats on the school and it serves as the entrance key to colleges nation wide.

But, of course, this will require a national agency to prepare these tests and a centrally coordinated system to evaluate them. Unfortunately, "national agency" and "centrally coordinated" are four letter words in American.

Rik



In 1952, when I was 13 and finishing elementary school (eighth grade, we did not have middle schools) , we were given a battery of national exams. And yes, in Minnesota all of the children are above average.


This was not so much true at the high school level four years later. It would be more complicated. In elementary school we all were expected to learn the same stuff.Everyone then went on to high school but on different tracks. My friend Fred took "shop math" and planned to become a plumber. He would not have scored well on a trigonometry exam. Some of the kids in my high school spent the morning in "regular" classes and then went to another place in the afternoon for vocational training. And for that matter, even though I was on the college prep track I took metal shop. One of the well taught courses, by the way. I am not saying this could not somehow be coped with, but we would not want to fault a school for failing to turn a plumber into a mathematician. There are things that everyone, plumber or mathematician, should know but that's only part of what goes on in high school.

One thing I would like: While we are testing the knowledge of students, I would like us to also test the knowledge of teachers. My geometry teacher knew geometry, my physics teacher knew physics, my biology teacher did not know anything, as near as I could tell. It's not a matter of being an expert, kids can learn from non-experts. But they need to know more than some do.. For example, when I say that my geometry teacher knew geometry, i mean that she understood the axiomatic approach and she could tell a correct proof from an incorrect proof, based on an examination of the logic rather than by looking in the teacher's manual to see if there was a match. Brilliance is not required, being able to independently judge whether a proof is correct or not is, well should be, required. .

I learned a great deal, spelling, geography, mathematics, grammar, history, what have you, from my eighth grade teacher. Quite a remarkable woman, surely not an expert in everything she taught but broadly knowledgeable.

I acknowledge that my adolescent behavior sometimes interfered with my learning, but it is also true that when I thought a teacher knew what s/he was talking about I would usually shut up and listen. Many, not all, youngsters will respond the same way.
Ken
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