[Zelandakh]

 ldrews, on 2017-January-27, 07:48, said:

As I said, a political appointee.

Tom Countryman's page at the State Department:

Quote

Since 1982, Mr. Countryman has served at U.S. embassies in Belgrade, Cairo, Athens and Rome.

Remind me again who the US President was in 1982.

[hrothgar]

 ldrews, on 2017-January-27, 07:48, said:

As I said, a political appointee.

God damn you're stupid. The very first sentence in the profile reads

Thomas Countryman, a career member of the Senior Foreign Service, rank of Minister-Counselor, currently serves as Acting Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security, a position to which he was appointed on October 9, 2016.

But what's truly infuriating about assholes like yourself is that you are so gleeful about your ignorance.
You actively look for opportunities to reject reality in order to signal tribal affiliation.

[barmar]

 kenberg, on 2017-January-26, 20:21, said:

Here is the problem as I see it: Until now, people have always treated what the POTUS says as serious. They pay close attention to his exact words. If there is a slight unexpected nuance they analyze it in detail to see if it means a shift in US policy. The same is done woth other major leaders. Well, that's gone. Trump pulls something out of his ass or out of the sky or wherever, he tweets it and people say "Well, that's just the way he is, don't take him seriously". It comes at us so fast it is impossible to keep up with it. I gather i that in an interview with the Washingrton Post he was talking about health care and said that he would arrange it so that everyone would have insurance. The his various nominees for this and that explained he didn't mean that literally. Then he explained that he did.

There's been lots of verbiage changing about this -- often they explain that what he's (or the R's) talking about is "access to health care". Until they actually publish their "plan", no one really knows what they mean.

During the campaign, a common refrain was that "Trump supporters take him seriously, but not literally; his detractors took him literally, but not seriously." After he got elected, I tried to hope that when he took office there would be much less BS (which I accept as a necessary evil in campaigning). Nope, no such luck.

Quote

I think it is a very bad thing for nobody to have any idea of when, if ever, they can take what he says both literally and seriously.

Yes, this is very scary.

Quote

So I am thinking this stuff with voter fraud could be a test case. I am assuming that most Rs and most Ds in the House and in the Senate are not total morons. If they are, the game is over. So suppose that they are not. I doubt very much that they believe that there were 3 to 5 million fraudulent votes cast, unless the lower number in 3 to 5 million is just 3 rather than 3 million. I suggest pushing on them here. The choices, and I think that they can see this, are (1) fund a fake investigation, chaired by Priebus, with a conclusion known from the start, that he would have won the popular vote if not for massive fraud or (2) do an honest investigation carried out by individuals dedicated to getting the truth, whatever it is. . Doing (2) will require a lot of time and money, and it will require getting people involved who are very broadly trusted. The key identifying feature of a type (2) investigation is that nobody will be able to predict with certainty what their conclusion will be.

In subsequent interviews, he's explained that he's talking about the voter rolls, not necessarily actual votes. This is exactly the kind of thing someone (was it you?) mentioned earlier -- when they moved to a new state, they never officially cancelled their registration in the old state. I wonder if anyone actually does this? He mentioned dead people -- I've heard that Social Security often continues to send out checks for deceased people, so it's hardly surprising that they don't get removed from the voter rolls, either. But none of this equates to actual voter fraud -- it's just like the states that have instituted voter ID requirements, ostensibly to combat voter fraud, but behind the scenes it's actually intended to disenfranchise minorities. There's never been credible evidence that any of these deficiencies in the voting process has led to a significant number of illegal votes.

It's more likely that making a big deal of this is intended to be some kind of distraction. I'm not sure that Trump is so calculating, but Bannon certainly could be. I suspect he whispers something in Trump's ear, and then Trump turns the molehill into a mountain.

[mikeh]

 kenberg, on 2017-January-26, 20:21, said:

Here is the problem as I see it: Until now, people have always treated what the POTUS says as serious. They pay close attention to his exact words. If there is a slight unexpected nuance they analyze it in detail to see if it means a shift in US policy. The same is done woth other major leaders. Well, that's gone. Trump pulls something out of his ass or out of the sky or wherever, he tweets it and people say "Well, that's just the way he is, don't take him seriously". It comes at us so fast it is impossible to keep up with it. I gather i that in an interview with the Washingrton Post he was talking about health care and said that he would arrange it so that everyone would have insurance. The his various nominees for this and that explained he didn't mean that literally. Then he explained that he did.

I think it is a very bad thing for nobody to have any idea of when, if ever, they can take what he says both literally and seriously.

So I am thinking this stuff with voter fraud could be a test case. I am assuming that most Rs and most Ds in the House and in the Senate are not total morons. If they are, the game is over. So suppose that they are not. I doubt very much that they believe that there were 3 to 5 million fraudulent votes cast, unless the lower number in 3 to 5 million is just 3 rather than 3 million. I suggest pushing on them here. The choices, and I think that they can see this, are (1) fund a fake investigation, chaired by Priebus, with a conclusion known from the start, that he would have won the popular vote if not for massive fraud or (2) do an honest investigation carried out by individuals dedicated to getting the truth, whatever it is. . Doing (2) will require a lot of time and money, and it will require getting people involved who are very broadly trusted. The key identifying feature of a type (2) investigation is that nobody will be able to predict with certainty what their conclusion will be.

I am thinking that at least a fair number of Rs would gag at (1), and would see that the consequences of (2), while not known with certainty, are apt to make them look very foolish for pursuing such a waste of time and money.

I am certainly open to other options. But I think that reasonable people of any party can see that having a president spouting random BS is not good for the country. Saying that "yes we will do an investigation but it has to be a serious one rather than an indulgence in one man's fantasy" could bring people of various political views face to face with reality.

Trump is now claiming that his concern about fraud is to do with the rolls...that there are people listed who ought not to be so listed. Some are dead. Others have moved and registered elsewhere. By that latter definition, of course, his own family (Tiffany) and his closest advisor (Bannon) are guilty of voter fraud. Strangely, according to trump, every single fraudulent voter voted for Clinton.

Of course, the reality is that he has consistently stated that the fraud was at the voting booth, not in the rolls. My suspicion is that some of his advisors have finally been able to convince him that repeating the lie about actual fraud at the booth was wearing thin. They needed to give him a face-saving pivot, so as to allow his followers to fool themselves into believing that it was always about the rolls.

Note that the voter rolls are ALWAYS going to be a bit out of date, at least with current information processing.

People move. Many are inevitably going to delay doing even the most basic 'paperwork' such as getting a new drivers licence or registering to vote, and taking the step of cancelling an existing data point, that one is simply not going to use ever again, will be low on most people's list of priorities.

People die....every day and in large numbers in a country with over 300MM inhabitants. I very much doubt that the first thing done on the promuncement of death is notification of the Secretary of State, in each state, to correct the voter rolls.

Thus the system has built-in errors. The voter rolls cannot and will not ever be made accurate, and inaccuracies are not proof of fraud.

Trump, or more likely his advisors, are lying again, and will likely get away with it again, at least in terms of the conservative media, since conservative media have no investment in reality, and in fact a strong investment in promoting lies as fact.

His health care tweets will be revised similarly. Where he has clearly stated that he wants actual health care for everyone, Ryan and McConnell want only 'universal access' rather than 'universal coverage'.

Of course, there was 'universal access' before Obamacare. Everyone has the right to live in a mansion, and to have servants, and so on......it's not the fault of politicians that only they and their sponsors can afford this. The access is universal!

Oh..maybe not. At a wild guess, even universal access won't apply to murderers, rapists, and drug dealers...aka illegal immigrants.

[Winstonm]

I wonder what Vegas has the over/under on Trump's mail or twitter account being hacked? I read that the hacking group Anonymous sent a warning about just such a thing.

At least Sean Spicer is accomodating to hackers.

[akwoo]

I take Trump neither literally nor seriously. There's no other choice when someone wants the equivalent of capturing the moon, abolishing death, and making the sun rise in the west. Fortunately he doesn't have the power to execute anyone who fails to point out his absurdity. (If you know the reference, it's intended.)

His plans will just collapse on their own impossibility as long as enough Republicans ask for even just a bare veneer of details, and they show every sign of doing that right now.

[y66]

Good points by mikeh about the problem of maintaining up-to-date voter rolls. From a Brennan Center post on automatic voter registration and modernization:

Quote

Automatic Registration is gaining traction quickly in the states. Prior to March 2015, no states automatically registered voters. Now, at least five states — California, Connecticut, Oregon, Vermont, and West Virginia — have authorized automatic voter registration at DMVs, in which eligible citizens who interact with the DMV will be added to the rolls unless they “opt out” of registration.

Automatic voter registration is the gold standard of modernized registration, and it builds on other reforms to bring voter registration to the 21st Century — which are increasingly commonplace across the country. Already, 49 states and the District of Columbia — without fanfare or partisan wrangling — have moved forward with important elements of Voter Registration Modernization, including electronic registration at DMVs, online registration, Election Day registration, and portability. Additionally, many states are considering ways to modernize their systems. See here for voting bills under consideration across the country.

[y66]

From America, You Look Like an Arab Country Right Now -- Welcome to the club. By KARL SHARRO January 22, 2017

Quote

Dear America,

We have been watching the drama of your presidential elections with much interest and curiosity for some time now. It’s hard not to notice the many similarities between our own countries and yours. From fiery inauguration protests and bitter disputes about crowd size, to the intelligence service’s forays into politics and the rise of right-wing extremists, it appears that you are traveling very much in our direction—and at the same time, like us, becoming a curiosity for foreign correspondents trying to explain what’s happening in your region to the world.

..The moment at which we felt real solidarity with the American people, though, was when we started hearing BBC reporters talking to your citizens with the patronizing tone they normally reserve for the Middle East. Correspondents were sent to far-flung corners of the United States to talk to farmers and factory workers to try to understand how they feel and to ask condescending questions. I’m from the British Broadcasting Corporation, are you familiar with the BBC? Where do you get your news from? Do you feel angry? Does religion play a role in how you are voting?. (The only thing missing were pictures of people with blue ink on their thumbs; please consider introducing that practice in the future.)

There was talk, too, of rural strongholds and urban bastions. Deep social and geographic divisions whose origins go back in time. They’re not quite tribal divisions, but there was more than enough religious and political sectarianism to ignite our interest. Who are the liberals and the conservatives and how did their disagreement begin? What’s the difference between alt-right and the Tea Party? What’s the origin of the schism between the neo-conservatives and paleoconservatives? Watching foreign correspondents trying to explain the differences was mesmerizing.

..Maybe you should just adapt to living in the new regime. We were always told that having a strongman in charge is the best solution for Arab countries, otherwise there would be chaos. Perhaps the American people are not ready for democracy after all. Let’s face it America, you look like an Arab country now.

Sincerely,

The Arab World

[kenberg]

 y66, on 2017-January-27, 21:54, said:

Good points by mikeh about the problem of maintaining up-to-date voter rolls. From a Brennan Center post on automatic voter registration and modernization:

In the Brennan Center article you mention it speaks of both automatic registration and electronic registration. Maryland is included in the latter but not the former. Practically speaking, registering is very easy for someone like me. I drive. So I register a car, I get plates, I get a license. I forget which one, maye all of them, allow me to update voter registration. I suppose automatic registration would help peple who perhaps do not drive or have other such interaction with the state. If the need is there, no doubt a way could be found to simultaneously eliminate the no longer valid registration in a previous district. Perhaps it would not be 100% perfect, but it could be made very good. I gather that it both saves money and improves accuracy through simplicity. And then we could address the problem of overcrowded and badly placed voting areas

This would be the approach if the objective were to make sure that each and every eligible voter, and no one else, is given an opportunity to vote exactly once. No reasonable person thinks that this is the objective of President Trump. His objective is to explain why he received fewer votes than Clinton. It's fraud. Of course, that's it. It's a fact. An alternative fact, but a fact. Ask Kellyanne if you have any doubt about this being a fact.

[Winstonm]

The problem is not now nor has it ever been one of fraudulent voting rather the problem has been and is one of getting legitimate registered voters out to the polls to vote. We should be spending our millions on creating more ways for people to conveniently vote than wasting it on a ridiculous fraud investigation.

[y66]

 kenberg, on 2017-January-28, 09:27, said:

In the Brennan Center article you mention it speaks of both automatic registration and electronic registration. Maryland is included in the latter but not the former. Practically speaking, registering is very easy for someone like me. I drive. So I register a car, I get plates, I get a license. I forget which one, maye all of them, allow me to update voter registration. I suppose automatic registration would help peple who perhaps do not drive or have other such interaction with the state. If the need is there, no doubt a way could be found to simultaneously eliminate the no longer valid registration in a previous district. Perhaps it would not be 100% perfect, but it could be made very good. I gather that it both saves money and improves accuracy through simplicity. And then we could address the problem of overcrowded and badly placed voting areas

This would be the approach if the objective were to make sure that each and every eligible voter, and no one else, is given an opportunity to vote exactly once. No reasonable person thinks that this is the objective of President Trump. His objective is to explain why he received fewer votes than Clinton. It's fraud. Of course, that's it. It's a fact. An alternative fact, but a fact. Ask Kellyanne if you have any doubt about this being a fact.

No doubt, Pence & Co. will confirm (as we already know) that one in four eligible citizens is not registered to vote; one in eight voter registrations is invalid or significantly inaccurate; 2.75 million people have registrations in more than one state; and one in four voters wrongly believes their voter registration is automatically updated when they change their address with the Postal Service.

Broken registration system = fraud (in Trump/Pence world). Therefore, instead of fixing the system, it is necessary to make it even harder for people to vote.

[Trinidad]

The organization of democratic elections is a task for the government. If a country doesn't believe in government, they get the voter registration and elections that they deserve.

Rik

[barmar]

 y66, on 2017-January-27, 21:54, said:

Good points by mikeh about the problem of maintaining up-to-date voter rolls. From a Brennan Center post on automatic voter registration and modernization:

The problem with the incorrect voter rolls isn't with the registration system, it's with the lack of any automatic deregistration system. When someone moves and registers in a new state, do they send notices to all the other states telling them to cancel the old registration? When someone dies, does the coroner send a copy of the death certificate to the voter registrar?

[kenberg]

 barmar, on 2017-January-28, 14:20, said:

The problem with the incorrect voter rolls isn't with the registration system, it's with the lack of any automatic deregistration system. When someone moves and registers in a new state, do they send notices to all the other states telling them to cancel the old registration? When someone dies, does the coroner send a copy of the death certificate to the voter registrar?

Probably that is a rhetorical question. But as for facts, I think I lived i at least a half dozen different places in toe counties in Minnesota before I left in 1967 and 8 or places in Maryland four counties in Maryland since then. I cannot recall ever taking any action to cancel any voter registration anywhere. If there was any machanism for the state(s) to do so surely they would have asked me, when I registered, where I had previously registered. I cannot recall this ever happening.

The drivers license is completely different. I went to the DMV. They took my Minnesota license from me, they gave me a Maryland test, they gave me a Maryland license, all in that order. I never really had thought about this before, but the difference is striking.

Amusement: Stupidly, I did not prepare for the Maryland test. If you apply your breaks when traveling 50mph, how many feet does it take to stop? Easy answer: The largest number offered in the multiple choice answers. I passed, just as I passed (got an A actually) my Psychology class in college without coming to class or reading the book. Multiple choice final exam. I exaggerate slightly. Only slightly.

[cherdano]

Guys, you are missing the thread.
Trump makes outrageous statement on TV.
Trump bans re-entry for close to 500,000 permanent residents. (I.e., if they happened to be abroad while the EO was signed, they can't come back - losing their jobs, being separated from their families, etc. If they happened to be in the US while the EO was signed, they can't leave the country - can't meet their families, can't travel to conferences, etc.)

This is cruelty for cruelty's sake.


"Dad, what did you do when Trump issued the Muslim travel ban?" - "Why? I discussed automatic deregistration from voter rolls, of course."

[y66]

 barmar, on 2017-January-28, 14:20, said:

The problem with the incorrect voter rolls isn't with the registration system, it's with the lack of any automatic deregistration system. When someone moves and registers in a new state, do they send notices to all the other states telling them to cancel the old registration? When someone dies, does the coroner send a copy of the death certificate to the voter registrar?

Your distinction reminds me of a quote by Phil Karlton: "There are two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things" to which Leon Bambrick added "and off-by-1 errors".

[y66]

Sorry cherdano. I did not see your post. You're right of course. It's not missing the thread to see Trump's voter fraud assertion as a ploy to further restrict voting rights but it is crass to belabor this point while hundreds of thousands of lives are being turned upside down.

[hrothgar]

 cherdano, on 2017-January-28, 16:51, said:

"Dad, what did you do when Trump issued the Muslim travel ban?" - "Why? I discussed automatic deregistration from voter rolls, of course."

[hrothgar]

 cherdano, on 2017-January-28, 16:51, said:

"Dad, what did you do when Trump issued the Muslim travel ban?" - "Why? I discussed automatic deregistration from voter rolls, of course."

[Winstonm]

I think the time has come to discuss real resistance. What are the most effective ways to act to delay, hold up, alter, etc. Trump's activities?