[ArtK78]

BBO ACBL IMP pair game. 3rd board of the first round (12 boards total in the game). You have had two reasonable results but now you are faced with this hand, vul against not in 2nd seat:

---

(1) Do you agree with the pass in second seat?
(2) Having passed and seeing LHO open 1♥ and RHO raise to 2♥, do you agree with the double?
(3) Do you agree with the pass in direct seat over 4♥?
(4) What do you do after partner doubles 4♥?

So, you had four chances to act and I have questions about each one of them.

[aguahombre]

1) yes
2) yes. It is called a prebalance.
3) yes.
4) This is partner's problem, not yours. If he is punishing them for being stupid, why would you want to interfere? If he doesn't understand prebalances, and himself is being stupid, live with it.

[mike777]

Ugg I am going to give pard:

AKxxx...QT9x...x...xxx( I assume pard would not overcall at unfav vul with that but who knows)
I don't like my chances anywhere but
1) agree with pass
2) agree with double
3) agree with pass
4) pass now uggg.

[mikeh]

Let me start by confessing that my game is all about imps: it has been years since I played any serious mps. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that my views here aren't shared by the better mp players out there.

1. Clear pass in 2nd seat. I don't worry about weak 4 card majors very much, in terms of opening a weak two, if that were available, but red v white second seat one wants a near max. This isn't it.

2. Personally, I'd pass without much thought. I would expect partner to hold 4 hearts more than any other length, and who'd be surprised if he held 5? If he holds 5, he probably has nowhere good to go, and may well not go there even if he did...expecting us to have more defence than we hold. If he does run, we may not know what to do.

If he runs to spades, that is probably good, tho he may be on a 3 card suit (say 3=5=2=3) and this isn't likely to be a good hand on which to play a moysian. If he runs to clubs, do we pull, catering to say 2=5=2=4, or do we sit, lest he be, say, 3=4=1=5?

3. Over the 4♥, we'd have to have completely lost our mind to take any action, and I assume the question was posed simply because the OP wanted to treat each round of the bidding equally. Bidding would be insane.

4. Over the double, well if they make it, this one is 100% on us. Partner expects us to hold some defence, and we don't. But we can hardly pull the double. He didn't overcall spades, and he didn't bid game over 3♥, so we do not rate to make, and down 2 will be the same zero as minus 590 (or 690). When one has committed a foolhardy act, and partner has taken an action perhaps overly reliant on that act, it is almost mandatory to stick with the original choice. Sometimes, you get lucky and partner can beat them. When he can't, then apologize and move on. Pulling when he can beat them is truly destructive of partnership trust: far more than watching them make, and apologizing for having rolled the dice earlier.

[ArtK78]

mikeh, on 2015-January-28, 18:09, said:

Let me start by confessing that my game is all about imps: it has been years since I played any serious mps. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that my views here aren't shared by the better mp players out there.

Mike, this is IMP pairs, not matchpoints. Does that change any of your answers?

[mikeh]

no...makes it even clearer at all stages

[the hog]

ArtK78, on 2015-January-28, 16:07, said:

BBO ACBL IMP pair game. 3rd board of the first round (12 boards total in the game). You have had two reasonable results but now you are faced with this hand, vul against not in 2nd seat:

---

(1) Do you agree with the pass in second seat?
(2) Having passed and seeing LHO open 1♥ and RHO raise to 2♥, do you agree with the double?
(3) Do you agree with the pass in direct seat over 4♥?
(4) What do you do after partner doubles 4♥?

So, you had four chances to act and I have questions about each one of them.

Yes.
No, it is nuts in my opinion. I guess this is someone I no longer want to play with.
Yes.
Pass, what else and prepare an apology.

[whereagles]

(1) Do you agree with the pass in second seat?

No. 2♦ seems a much fairer description than pass.



(2) Having passed and seeing LHO open 1♥ and RHO raise to 2♥, do you agree with the double?

No. Pard can't have 5 spades and the hand lacks entries. I think 3♦ is better.


(3) Do you agree with the pass in direct seat over 4♥?

Of course.


(4) What do you do after partner doubles 4♥?

Find a way to foul the board.

[Free]

Yes
No, we don't have a single trick in defense
Yes
Clear pass and prepare to appologize for your Dbl

[aguahombre]

I didn't know that a double of a bid and raised suit required a certain number of DEFENSIVE tricks. Maybe that will come out in LC's next book.

[rhm]

aguahombre, on 2015-January-29, 01:59, said:

I didn't know that a double of a bid and raised suit required a certain number of DEFENSIVE tricks. Maybe that will come out in LC's next book.

No it doesn't, but it shows a reasonable hand in context.
Partner could have overcalled in spades at the one level.
He didn't.
Your hand did not get any stronger because you passed initially.
Bidding red versus white while not even in the pass-out seat with just a single king and a queen unforced is just asking for trouble.
Red versus white don't start a fight when you are outgunned.
If nothing else you will only provide a blueprint for opponents how to the play the hand later.
It is just possible that 4♥ will not fetch, but if they make an overtrick I would not blame your partner.

Rainer Herrmann

[the hog]

aguahombre, on 2015-January-29, 01:59, said:

I didn't know that a double of a bid and raised suit required a certain number of DEFENSIVE tricks. Maybe that will come out in LC's next book.

As Rainer said, you need a hand not a piece of crap.

[Phil]

1. I'd pass but if it's your partnership's style to open this 2♦ go for it. I'd hesitate to say either call is 'right'.

2. Double of 2♥ looks pretty clear to me. This hand has a lot of playing strength. Pass is conceding a partscore or even a double game swing. The fact we are a passed hand makes this clear.

3. Easy pass of 4♥. Hopefully partner is aware that I'm bidding my heart shortness, and my passed hand status. IS there a hand I should pull with? I don't think so; I would have already bid 4. If partner is making some macho x on a 12 count and ♥QJxx this ones on him.

[mikeh]

aguahombre, on 2015-January-29, 01:59, said:

I didn't know that a double of a bid and raised suit required a certain number of DEFENSIVE tricks. Maybe that will come out in LC's next book.

Imagine you are your partner and you see a takeout double of 2♥. You haven't seen the hand, of course. A kibitzer, interested in learning the game, asks you what the double shows.

I'd expect most good players to say: it is takeout of hearts. To which the kibitzer says: tell me more

I'd expect most good players to say: well, he's a passed hand, so that limits his hcp. He has support for the other suits, and knows that we may be having to play 3 of a minor, red v white, so he rates to have a near-opener: say a decent 9-10 hcp.

Now take a look at the OP hand and tell me whether it matches that description.

All too often, imo, we have posters who, maybe in real life and maybe just here, think that they HAVE to bid something all the time. All too often, imo, we have players who are playing solitaire, not bridge. What I mean by that is that they make calls with very loose meanings, presumably because in their partnerships, partner is just a foil for them. Look at what happened here....we get someone who doubles 2♥ and is then worried when their partner doubles 4♥. If anyone doubles 2♥ and then even thinks of pulling the double of 4♥, that player is a solitaire player, not a bridge player.

[ArtK78]

mikeh, on 2015-January-29, 10:27, said:

All too often, imo, we have posters who, maybe in real life and maybe just here, think that they HAVE to bid something all the time. All too often, imo, we have players who are playing solitaire, not bridge. What I mean by that is that they make calls with very loose meanings, presumably because in their partnerships, partner is just a foil for them. Look at what happened here....we get someone who doubles 2♥ and is then worried when their partner doubles 4♥. If anyone doubles 2♥ and then even thinks of pulling the double of 4♥, that player is a solitaire player, not a bridge player.

The funny thing about this hand is that my partner was very upset with me for NOT pulling the double of 4♥. His hand was:

KJ73
K732
AQ87
9

The result was -690 while we were cold for +620 (more likely +650).

His argument was that he bid 3♠ over 3♥ when he did not have to do so, and then his subsequent double showed a very good hand with 4 spades that could not act over the 1♥ opening in front of him. Essentially, he is saying that his double showed convertable values rather than just a penalty double of 4♥.

I think he should just bid 4♠.Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Another funny thing is that this hand was played quite a number of times, but there was only one pair that played in 4♠. Some did play in a spade partial. Most played in some number of hearts. We were going to get a bad score for -450. But they might not have bid 4♥ if I didn't get into the auction.

[Phil]

So the opps had this unseen side nine card fit. Unlucky.

If you had Qxxx void xxx KJTxxx instead 4♠ is a not so happy path and 4♥ has a lot of work.

If I'm playing with a Solid bidder like MikeH then the doubler has Qxxx void Kxxx AJxxx and 4♠ looks obvious. On the last round.

[ArtK78]

Phil, on 2015-January-29, 12:46, said:

So the opps had this unseen side nine card fit. Unlucky.

If you had Qxxx void xxx KJTxxx instead 4♠ is a not so happy path and 4♥ has a lot of work.

If I'm playing with a Solid bidder like MikeH then the doubler has Qxxx void Kxxx AJxxx and 4♠ looks obvious. On the last round.

You are correct. If I had the first hand that you suggested 4♠ would be a problem and 4♥ would be in trouble. But that hand is not possible. The double that I made, as agua suggested, was a prebalance. I could handle any response, as I could bid 3♦ over 3♣. With the first hand that you suggested, I could not handle a 3♦ response.

I see that in a prior post you agreed with the double of 2♥. Would you have doubled 2♥ if you were 4-0-3-6?

If I were less distributional, I should have more power - more along the lines of your second hand. In any event, 4♠ rates to be a good spot.

[mike777]

Interesting thread, I am going to email this one around.

I note that those that prebalanced choose to not bid 3d even though pard might x with 4s and a decent hand.
It makes me wonder if 3d here would show a long one suited hand that for some reason choose to not open wk 2d.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2015-January-29, 14:14, said:

Interesting thread, I am going to email this one around.

I note that those that prebalanced choose to not bid 3d even though pard might x with 4s and a decent hand.
It makes me wonder if 3d here would show a long one suited hand that for some reason choose to not open wk 2d.

My partner would not Double 1H with 4S and a decent hand which also included 4 Hearts. So, an E/W spade fit is still very possible.

Art, just above your post, explained that with the ELC possibility the double rather than 3D is appropriate. It shouldn't be necessary for partner to infer with his singleton Diamond the reason you failed to open 2D was four cards in Spades...and at a higher level as well.

[mike777]

thanks
I did not mean to suggest that pard should infer 4s but perhaps a one suited hand too weak open in second seat should the bidding not end.

Not sure if ELC would promise this disparity but perhaps yes< also it seems a direct 3d is a bit more lead directing in case LHO bids over us. But I understand many posters choose to treat this as 3 suited or ELC correction, rather than a simple one suited hand.

I do find the whole expert discussion on whether we should pass or bid, bid something over 2H to be very interesting.