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Transfers With 4 Card Suit

#1 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 10:34

a general question, is it ever right to transfer over 1N with a 4 card suit

- does this depend on the strength on 1NT

if so what would be an example hand where you would transfer

many thanks

Eagles
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#2 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 10:55

Not in any sort of standard system, no.
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#3 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 11:04

I think it's much more often right to bid stayman with a five-card suit. Besides the usual 5/4 majors hands, I've had good success doing this on 5332 hands with a weak five-card suit.
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#4 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 12:36

I might consider it with QJT9 and out but the short answer is no:

- They haven't doubled 1NT yet. 2M might get doubled
- If they double 1NT, we might be able to scramble. If they double 2M which could be a 4-2 fit there is no escape
- If p has has 4-card support he will often superaccept
- If p has 3-card support, he might compete after opps balance
- If p has 2-card support, it is likely worse than 1NT even if they don't double
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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 15:37

I transfer with 4 card suits much more often than others. When I am bored. I have yet to see a good result doing it Posted Image
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 17:57

I've seen methods where a transfer is made on a 4-card suit with a canapé hand. Have seen this with both INV or GF. Didn't think much of it but everyone has their system.
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#7 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 20:41

As many, many movies would say: NOOOOO, IT'S A TRAP!
"It's not enough to win the tricks that belong to you. Try also for some that belong to the opponents."

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#8 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-October-11, 22:12

View Postawm, on 2014-October-11, 11:04, said:

I think it's much more often right to bid stayman with a five-card suit. Besides the usual 5/4 majors hands, I've had good success doing this on 5332 hands with a weak five-card suit.


I think this has a lot to recommend it.
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2014-October-12, 16:43

View Posteagles123, on 2014-October-11, 10:34, said:

a general question, is it ever right to transfer over 1N with a 4 card suit

- does this depend on the strength on 1NT

if so what would be an example hand where you would transfer

many thanks

Eagles


I presume by this you mean "is it right to use a standard transfer that normally shows 5 cards ...", I would say no, but over a wide range no trump a system using systemic 4 card inv+ transfers can be useful.
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#10 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2014-October-12, 21:48

the answer is yes. if you're playing a weak no trump, and have something close to 0, 4th hand is likely to have a penalty double. by transferring you make it, on the whole, more difficult for them to extract a penalty, even if they play double of the transfer as showing a hand which would have doubled 1nt.

this is rather scoring and vulnerability dependent. at teams it's often best to take your medicine in 1nt. but at pairs you're often getting a bottom for a moderate penalty, say 500 against 430.
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#11 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2014-October-14, 07:54

Playing Stayman and at least red suit transfers, then it would be non standard - though as noted as above you'll sometimes get away with it.

If you play Keri (or mods thereof) transfers on 4 (on some hand types) are routine - but then you're not playing Stayman in that way of doing things, 2 being used for other things.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#12 User is offline   kupi007 

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Posted 2014-October-15, 04:58

Bidding directly 4-card suit with bad hand after weak nt have some appeal, but normally transfering to 4-card major is bad, you give extra chance to paly doubled, and as mentioned earlier, runouts after nt should handle bad hand with 4-card major that cannot stayman.
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#13 User is offline   beatrix45 

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Posted 2014-October-15, 12:45

Xfers with a 4 cd suit are a lie sometimes used to escape partner's 1NT opener when you have a hopelessly weak hand and are non-vul. It can work on a given hand, but it erodes confidence. It can occasionally get you in serious trouble when pard superaccepts. It's like having a man who lies about having sex with some floozie. It may be the best way to go in the short term, but eventually it usually becomes a problem.

P.S. For what it is worth, I don't see the sense in playing Xfers over the weak NT. Fantunes and others do it, but they have a very complex and integrated system. Google 'Moscow Escapes' just for fun.
Trixi
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#14 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-October-15, 16:06

View Posteagles123, on 2014-October-11, 10:34, said:

a general question, is it ever right to transfer over 1N with a 4 card suit - does this depend on the strength on 1NT
if so what would be an example hand where you would transfer
IMO Transfers are artificial not natural bids. After a natural notrump bid, there are several conventional treatments that involve transfers to four card suits. In Tiger Bridge (1970), Jeremy Flint advocates 4 card transfers to escape undoubled, when partner opens a weak 1N and you have a weak hand. The hope is that 2M is less likely to be doubled than a weak notrump. He also suggests responding 3N with a weak hand and a long minor as an alternative tactic! In 1966, playing a weak notrump, Peter Pinder and he were 1st and 2nd in the McKenny Trophy
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#15 User is offline   ochinko 

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Posted 2014-October-16, 03:14

I must admit, I transfer to a 4 card major almost always when I have a void or a singleton in the other major, and a hand that is so weak that wouldn't consider inviting.

I can't really complain of the outcome. With a doubleton in the other major was always disastrous, though.
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#16 User is offline   beatrix45 

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Posted 2014-October-31, 20:51

Bidding a 4-bagger like it was a 5+ bagger is OK (out of desperation) if you are playing opposite a weak or Kamikazi NT opener and you are very weak yourself. Playing Xfers opposite weak NT openers makes no sense to me, although a few top pairs do so for reasons I don't understand. You might enjoy googling 'moscow escapes bridge'.
Trixi
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