[Free]

inquiry, on Mar 10 2005, 04:43 PM, said:

Arsen, on Mar 10 2005, 09:57 AM, said:

Since those bids can not be alerted (to be seen only by TD) and there is no such function on the software in use I am not allowing "psyche" bids during my tourneys.

(snip)

Your comments will be appreciated.

Arsen

The big problem now is trying to determine if an "odd bid" is a psyche or not.

Opening 1NT (15-17) with 14 or 18?

Cue-bidding a suit without a stopper?

Opening first chair with a 10 count, or a 9 count?

Opening third chair with a "preempt" that most opened one of suit with?

A misclick (was it a psyche or an accidental click).

A 1NT opening bid with right hcp but a singleton?

You will get yourself involved in a lot of disputes, if your players realize, that psyche's are not allowed.. disputes over rather this bid or that one was a psyche or not.

ben

VERY good points!

Imo psychs make the game more interesting, that's all.

[luis]

inquiry, on Mar 10 2005, 03:43 PM, said:

Arsen, on Mar 10 2005, 09:57 AM, said:

Since those bids can not be alerted (to be seen only by TD) and there is no such function on the software in use I am not allowing "psyche" bids during my tourneys.

(snip)

Your comments will be appreciated.

Arsen

The big problem now is trying to determine if an "odd bid" is a psyche or not.

Opening 1NT (15-17) with 14 or 18?

Cue-bidding a suit without a stopper?

Opening first chair with a 10 count, or a 9 count?

Opening third chair with a "preempt" that most opened one of suit with?

A misclick (was it a psyche or an accidental click).

A 1NT opening bid with right hcp but a singleton?

You will get yourself involved in a lot of disputes, if your players realize, that psyche's are not allowed.. disputes over rather this bid or that one was a psyche or not.

ben

First to Fred:
THANKS! I've been trying to convince a good number of local experts than that kind of 3NT bid is not a psyche and shouldn't be called a psyche.
In one hand I bid 1s over 1c with xxxx, x, xxx, T98xx and I was flagged with a psyche nobody could understand that if I wanted to psyche I would have bid 1h or 1NT but not 1s the suit I do have....
I would love to see some guidelines for TDs about this published by the WBF or the ACBL....

And to Ben:

Most of your examples Ben are more a question of style rather than psyches.
And I think that most of the examples you've given should be in the CC if they have been discussed or they MUST be added to the CC as soon as a case appears and the pd discusses if that was ok or the player should never do that again.

About NT I think opening style it MUST be disclosed in the CC.
In One of my CCs for example I have:
1NT: 15-17 (14 is ok frequently upgraded never 14 4333, 18 never)
Hands with a singleton A or K can be opened 1NT if that simplifies the auction
Irregular distributions are fine in 3rd position, rare in 1st or 2nd.

About opening with 9 or 10: Part of General approach and style in the CC, either you open light or you don't. If you don't and you open light some hand then it's not exactly a psyche but a system violation. And who will care? Everybody opens light these days...

About opening a preempt in 3rd suit with opening values: Isn't that normal bridge? Since pd is a passed hand I can have 0 or 12 and I think that's normal bridge.

[inquiry]

luis, on Mar 10 2005, 03:59 PM, said:

In one hand I bid 1s over 1c with xxxx, x, xxx, T98xx and I was flagged with a psyche nobody could understand that if I wanted to psyche I would have bid 1h or 1NT but not 1s the suit I do have....

Most of your examples Ben are more a question of style rather than psyches.
And I think that most of the examples you've given should be

About opening with 9 or 10: Part of General approach and style in the CC, either you open light or you don't.

About opening a preempt in 3rd suit with opening values: Isn't that normal bridge? Since pd is a passed hand I can have 0 or 12 and I think that's normal bridge.

I think these are all matter of style, including bidding 3NT with no plans to make, bidding 1S on the hand you did, opening NT with stiff, opening third chair with a "preempt" with an opening hand.

We agree completly. But just as you had trouble with people saying you psyched when you bid 1S on that dog, the director will be called to adjucate your hand and those examples I gave and many others, if you have a blanket rulling no psyches. In otherwords, the director will get involved, frequently, on what is and is not a psyche.

Let me give two examples from last tourney I directed.

One guy opened 1NT on 14 (no card, no alert). I was called because he didn't have 15 and the opponents could make 4S played in 2S. The fellow called 1NT on 14 a psyche.

Another a guy opened 2D, and immediately alerted as misclick (and he was vul). This two diamond got passed to the fellow with all the diamond, and he doubled. The 2D bidder now bid 2H, we will never know what the 2D bidders partner would have done because second hand now bid. They wanted an adjusted score because of the 2D bid with 6 hearts and 1 diamond. Mind you, again, he ALERTED this "psyche" as the misclick it was, and he did not tell his parnter it was a misclick. I told the opponents no harm no foul, and I told the misclicker that he does not need to alert misclicks, consider it a psyche and let his opponents be as much in the dark as is partner. Imagine if I had a rule no pyches how many such calls I would get from people that are certain this bid or that bid was a psyche.

But I think your 1S bid example sort of proves my point.

Ben

[the hog]

What is a psyche? I have increasingly come around to Richard's viewpoint that there is no such thing. The system I play allows 9 point openings, is that a psyche?

Also Arsen, what about the example we mentioned about a week ago:
3C 3NT on a C fit and nothing else. How would you rule on that? Fred argued as well that that bid is not a psyche.

[luke warm]

ben and ron are right imo... even experienced tds have trouble determining what is and what isn't a psych... i think it's ridiculous to have a td tell me that (taking louis' example) a 1s bid with 4 spades is a psych...

[helene_t]

The_Hog, on Mar 11 2005, 12:32 AM, said:

3C 3NT on a C fit and nothing else. How would you rule on that? Fred argued as well that that bid is not a psyche.

Maybe it depends for what purpose you need a definition of "psyche".

Ben says it's unethical to psyche frequently against beginners and pick-up partnerships. I think this example qualifies as a psyche in that context.

My CC says that I "never" psyche. (Quotation marks included as I have psyched a couple of times). In this context, the example probably does not qualify as a psyche. I frequently false-card as declarer, and I think the example given belongs to the same category, at least when playing against opponents with reasonable skills.

If psyches are prohibited because the TD is afraid he wouldn't be able to tell a psyche from a concealed agreement, the example does not qualify as a psyche.

If psyches are prohibited for some obscure reason, I have no clue what "psyche" is supposed to mean.

[Free]

Luis' 1♠ bid is a borderline psych imo. Ok, he has ♠s, BUT he has a much weaker hand than he promisses. Lying about your strength is also considered a psych... Opening 1NT on a 9-point hand while you are in fact balanced IS a psych, so where's the difference between these 2 examples?

But indeed, there's a fine line between psych and creative bid. Is bidding with a 3 card ♠ but with sufficient strength a psych or just a creative bid? I think we can give numerous examples of doubtful situations.

[mycroft]

luis, on Mar 10 2005, 08:59 PM, said:

In one hand I bid 1s over 1c with xxxx, x, xxx, T98xx and I was flagged with a psyche nobody could understand that if I wanted to psyche I would have bid 1h or 1NT but not 1s the suit I do have....
I would love to see some guidelines for TDs about this published by the WBF or the ACBL....

A Psychic Call is defined as " A deliberate and gross misstatement of honour strength or suit length." So unless you and partner agree systemically to overcall 1S on, say, KTxx x xxx T98xx (note, I'm generous and adding the honours to the bid suit!), I would say that xxxx x xxx T98xx is a "gross misstatement of honour strength" (and if you do agree that my first hand is a 1S overcall, I hope you Alert their opponents!) I'm guessing you didn't slip and mean to pull out a pass, so there's "deliberate"...

So there's your guidelines - right there on page 2 of the Laws :-). Nothing borderline about it, and I would expect you to be "tagged with a psych" anywhere - unless, of course, you have evidence for their agreement to make psychotic overcalls, and disclose to opponents as required by the SO.

As far as rulings psychics is concerned, I'm sure you've read the WBF Psychic Bidding Guidelines and the relevant parts of the WBF Code of Practice for Appeals Committees. While I personally believe those guidelines are too tight, they *are* the relevant guidelines.

Free said:

But indeed, there's a fine line between psych and creative bid.

I believe I have stated above (if not, another thread about psychics) the saw that a [tactical|creative] bid is "a psychic call I would make" and a psych is "a creative bid made against me". It's just that people recoil from the word "psych" so strongly - even those who are in favour of the practice - that they try anything to explain away *their* psychics.

Feel free to psych, take your good results when it's right, take your lumps when it's wrong, but please don't try to weasel out of what you're doing by explaining that you made a "tactical bid that [worked brilliantly|went wrong]". And, please, when you are effectively psyched out (and there's no evidence of a CPU or illegal field, of course), say "nicely done, <opponent>" or "yep, ya got me this time," and move on.

Yeah, yeah. I'm preaching to the converted, I know.
Michael.

[luis]

mycroft, on Mar 11 2005, 07:31 PM, said:

luis, on Mar 10 2005, 08:59 PM, said:

In one hand I bid 1s over 1c with xxxx, x, xxx, T98xx and I was flagged with a psyche nobody could understand that if I wanted to psyche I would have bid 1h or 1NT but not 1s the suit I do have....
I would love to see some guidelines for TDs about this published by the WBF or the ACBL....

A Psychic Call is defined as " A deliberate and gross misstatement of honour strength or suit length." So unless you and partner agree systemically to overcall 1S on, say, KTxx x xxx T98xx (note, I'm generous and adding the honours to the bid suit!), I would say that xxxx x xxx T98xx is a "gross misstatement of honour strength" (and if you do agree that my first hand is a 1S overcall, I hope you Alert their opponents!) I'm guessing you didn't slip and mean to pull out a pass, so there's "deliberate"...

So there's your guidelines - right there on page 2 of the Laws :-). Nothing borderline about it, and I would expect you to be "tagged with a psych" anywhere - unless, of course, you have evidence for their agreement to make psychotic overcalls, and disclose to opponents as required by the SO.

As far as rulings psychics is concerned, I'm sure you've read the WBF Psychic Bidding Guidelines and the relevant parts of the WBF Code of Practice for Appeals Committees. While I personally believe those guidelines are too tight, they *are* the relevant guidelines.

Free said:

But indeed, there's a fine line between psych and creative bid.

I believe I have stated above (if not, another thread about psychics) the saw that a [tactical|creative] bid is "a psychic call I would make" and a psych is "a creative bid made against me". It's just that people recoil from the word "psych" so strongly - even those who are in favour of the practice - that they try anything to explain away *their* psychics.

Feel free to psych, take your good results when it's right, take your lumps when it's wrong, but please don't try to weasel out of what you're doing by explaining that you made a "tactical bid that [worked brilliantly|went wrong]". And, please, when you are effectively psyched out (and there's no evidence of a CPU or illegal field, of course), say "nicely done, <opponent>" or "yep, ya got me this time," and move on.

Yeah, yeah. I'm preaching to the converted, I know.
Michael.

Dude, I didn't overcall 1s, my pd opened 1c and I bid 1s, having 4s and 5 clubs I think that the 1s bid is as sound as it can be, if they have game we can find a spade defense and if pd has a bomb then we should be able to make at least 5c so passing 1c is a losing option in both scenarios.
Now call that a psyche and I will be extremely surprised.

[mycroft]

luis, on Mar 11 2005, 08:48 PM, said:

mycroft, on Mar 11 2005, 07:31 PM, said:

luis, on Mar 10 2005, 08:59 PM, said:

In one hand I bid 1s over 1c with xxxx, x, xxx, T98xx

[response snipped]

Dude, I didn't overcall 1s, my pd opened 1c and I bid 1s, having 4s and 5 clubs I think that the 1s bid is as sound as it can be, if they have game we can find a spade defense and if pd has a bomb then we should be able to make at least 5c so passing 1c is a losing option in both scenarios.
Now call that a psyche and I will be extremely surprised.

Ah I apologize. "I bid 1S over 1C"...read to me like an overcall.

Okay, this one *is* borderline - and depends on your agreements with your partner.
If *I* did it, it would be a psych - because I have a policy of sound responses, and I've played 1C-1S;2NT-Oh dear too many times. Here, you have a 3C "out", but is it NF? Is partner still going to take you for a good 5? *My* partners always see "oh good my clubs will run" and bid 3NT...

I agree with your logic, by the way - but I'm not sure 5C opposite a balanced 18 is going to be as solid as you make out. And that's what my partners always have...

The same arguments apply, though. If your agreement is that you respond in a new suit on exremely weak hands with a known "rescue" fit, and the opponents are given appropriate disclosure, then you're ok. If not, then if your agreement is that you would bid 1S with (say) QTxx x xxx T98xx, and the opponents are in the loop, then it's probably not a "gross distortion".

If you have this agreement and the opponents aren't in the loop, you still haven't psyched, but if the UI meant that they missed their shot at 4H or 5Cx, they're going to get an adjusted score.

The next response, then from many people - not you, Luis, I know that - is "But it's Standard. Everybody would do that." I don't care what "everybody" would do - it's what the particular partnership would do, and the opponents are entitled to that. If they're not, they get the ruling.

Yes, yes: "general Bridge knowledge" - but people hide many sins behind that, too, like "I don't have to tell you what a minimum opener is, that's general Bridge knowledge" or "Everybody knows that 2NT after a weak 2 could be a preemptive raise". I don't know a good test for "general Bridge knowledge". Maybe ask 4 random people in the game, including any visitor, what they would call on that hand, and if every one of them at least considers the call - not knowing who their partner is, not even their strength, just the system played - then it's probably "gBk". Note there's no "peer" judgement here - general Bridge knowledge doesn't mean "general Expert knowledge" or "general knowledge among Eastern Canada 2/1 players" or...

Again, I apologize. I really did read it wrong.
Michael.

[guggie]

My first psyche on BBO

I subbed in Magic Mystic, last round. My p did not answer on my question about his cc, but np. I had:

Scoring: IMP

---

My p opened 2♠, weak. RHO called 3♦. My time had come! I rose to the occasion with 4♥.
Everybody passed.
The board was:

Scoring: IMP

---

After p saw my hand he typed a handful of question marks, left, and was blacklisted.
I told the TD I had psyched. Then I alsmost got blacklisted too, it was a "no psyche" tournament.
Although IMHO 6♥ was cold, - anyway 6♣ was, we lost 2.6 IMPs with -300 (I managed to make 4 tricks)

So far for my first psyche on BBO in >1000 hands;-)
But I HAD fun...

[pigpenz]

What Fred says is true......having been a recorder for the acbl....they were more concerned about attitude and temperment at the table then they were about bids unless a pair was fielding an unusual amount of questionable calls.

They are in the business of selling their product (nonprofit?)....so they want people to feel comfortable.

[pigpenz]

auction: red vs nv
3♥ x 5♣ x
p p 5♥ ?


Swiss Qualifying for Knockouts back in 70's
you have one masterpoint and are playing against Paul Soloway and Mike Passel
You ask Soloway what the 5♣ is and the answer is he's a big boy he knows how to bid his cards.

Result: terrible
experienced gained: priceless

[shoeless]

LOL - typical Soloway quip - my first regional, first event, last round of the event - Soloway and Mike Albert as i remember. I was shaking as I picked up something like xx-akq10xxx-jx-ak in opening seat - opened 1h and pard bid forcing 1nt - without as much as a twitch I bid 3nt personally relieved that pard could play nt - I had some extras after all - must be game. Dummy came down and Soloway said "Nice normal auction" I thanked him sincerely. People are still laughing at me for that.

[pigpenz]

I can relate to that having Played with Mike Albert when I lived in Omaha

[pigpenz]

♥AQ
♥AQJXXXx
♦AXX
♣K


AUCTION:
1♥ 2♦ 2♥ PASS
3♣ PASS 3♥ PASS
4♥ PASS PASS PASS


at the time my intentions were to try and get the opponents to play me for a club holding where i might score my stiff K ♣. My left hand opponent felt like I has psyched as said no it is a tactical bid.

any suggestions.....obviously i scored the K♣ cause he underlead the A♣

[Echognome]

Pigpenz - Depending on what your 3♣ bid meant in your system, you might have exposed your own psych. A good example is if it were a long suit trial bid. Since your partner rejected and you still went on to game, it stands to reason that you weren't consulting partner at all. There are a couple of examples of this tactic in Cappelletti's book.

[pigpenz]

yes, my partner was trying to explain that to the opponents that i made a game try and he ignored it and I still bid game. They were more concerned that maybe I had made a short suit game try.

[Rebound]

There are so many points worth adressing in all the above posts, I don't know if I will remember them all, but here goes:

First, I am wholly in favor of allowng psychs even tho I wouldn't know when to bid or defend against one if my life depended on it. I plan to research the topic sufficiently to change that, however.

The argument that a psych is simply a subset of so-called mixed strategy is contradictory on its face. The post describing it stated clearly that a psych is not really a psych, then went on to provide an example which is, by definition, not a psych, since it is a partnership agreement.

To those who state that the line between a so-called shaded or light bid and a psych has become too whispy to fathom, consider the expression, "gross misstatement". I was taught it amounted to about a king too much or too little in high cards. Make it an ace if you "tactical bidders" feel that to be too restrictive. I think holding 2 cards over or under expected length is reasonably termed a psych, such as opening 1♠ holding xxx in the suit and playing 5-card majors.

I agree that there's enough stuff going on on BBO that no harm can come from allowing TD's of free, independant tourneys to ban psychs clear in the knowledge that if you don't like that rule, you simply won't enter.

As Fred said, a psych is an altogether different animal from a bid which has no pre-existing partnership agreement. Again, it just goes back to the definition of a psych. If a partnership has no agreement for a given call, they can make it with any hand they like. It seems to bear repeating that the spirit of the rules explicitly permitting psyches is to make it known that, in bridge, you can make any call you want with any hand you want with only 3 restrictions: #1 Disclosure: if your partnership has an agreed meaning for the given call, your opponents are entitled to know what it is, #2 Fielding: some conventional calls and others which allow a partnership to use the auction to deliberately diagnose whether a psych has occurred (where the opponents cannot) may not be psyched since this is grossly unfair to the opponents, #3 you may not psych if your sole purpose is to skew the results of the board for the rest of the field for shits and giggles since this is unsportsmanlike and unfair to the entire field.

Regarding psyching against weak and or novice opponents in clubs and bracketed events, c'mon, grow up. If you are a strong partnership, just bid it up, take your expected average plus, and go on to the next round. Why do we want to humiliate players who are new to the game just for laughs? Mind you, if a weak pair enters an open tournament, it's no-holds barred imo. Be my guest and play to win.

Sorry about the long post but I felt it needed saying

[Double !]

Rebound:

I am so glad you wrote this posting because it reminded me of a question that I've been trying to get an answer to for a long time.

Anyone who knows the answer, please let me know.

Question: Are Gardner 1NT overcalls (either a strong NT hand or a WJO) legal in the acbl, are they considered destructive (I can't see why they would be), or are they regarded as being controlled psyches? (Advancer can bid 2C to ask which type of hand the 1NT bidder has.) I asked 2 different directors this question last summer at the NABCs in NYC, and neither was sure of the answer. One didn't appear to even be familiar with the convention..... Gardner NT overcalls have been around for a long time although I've never seen anyone actually have them written on their convention card. I have seen many a 1NT overcall psyche as I'm sure all of you have. But, as a convention, are they legal in acbl events?

Sincere thank you in advance to any and all who reply to this.

Don