[bearmum]

inquiry, on Mar 2 2005, 03:41 AM, said:

Why is that? Because I very seldom psyche vul... but psyche relatively frequently (not crazy mind  you) not vul.

Ben

Edited quote

Ben I am not sure if you are refering f2f or online bridge BUT surely

1. in f2f it should be on your CC that you "frequently" psych NON vul in 3rd position (and MAYBE should be brought to the attention of opps as it takes a LONG time to read CC s)

2. ONLINE surely YOU should be self alerting tha same thing ?

3. Waht are "frequent psyches" ??

NOW the question I have IF both you and your partner KNOW you "frequently psyche" in 3rd position NON vul does that not mean u have a "special agreement" with partner [and is that not against the SPIRIT of the laws {rather that the letter of the laws}]

[inquiry]

bearmum, on Mar 2 2005, 09:00 AM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 2 2005, 03:41 AM, said:

Why is that? Because I very seldom psyche vul... but psyche relatively frequently (not crazy mind  you) not vul.

Ben

Edited quote

Ben I am not sure if you are refering f2f or online bridge BUT surely

1. in f2f it should be on your CC that you "frequently" psych NON vul in 3rd position (and MAYBE should be brought to the attention of opps as it takes a LONG time to read CC s)

2. ONLINE surely YOU should be self alerting tha same thing ?

3. Waht are "frequent psyches" ??

NOW the question I have IF both you and your partner KNOW you "frequently psyche" in 3rd position NON vul does that not mean u have a "special agreement" with partner [and is that not against the SPIRIT of the laws {rather that the letter of the laws}]

My profile includes comments that I psyche. On line I do not psyche "frequenlty" as I agree with comments that psyching frequently against novice/beginners/ or pickup partnershipship is not ethical. I do psyche both vul and nonvul. Obviously the risk of psycing vulnerable are much greater, so these are more careful psyches.

Ben

[Brandal]

inquiry, on Mar 2 2005, 08:34 AM, said:

My profile includes comments that I psyche. On line I do not psyche "frequenlty" as I agree with comments that psyching frequently against novice/beginners/ or pickup partnershipship is not ethical. I do psyche both vul and nonvul. Obviously the risk of psycing vulnerable are much greater, so these are more careful psyches.

Ben

I still have problems "getting my head around" the fine
ethical lines here.

Is including comments that you psyche entirely a "good
ethical" thing to do?

Isn't that sowing a seed of doubt "for free"?

Isn't it more "ethical" to psyche with a pickup partner
than someone who knows you?

Once again,I am not for banning psyches,as this thread
started out asking.
I am very concerned about the ethical side of psyches.


Frode

[inquiry]

Brandal, on Mar 2 2005, 10:23 AM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 2 2005, 08:34 AM, said:

My profile includes comments that I psyche. On line I do not psyche "frequenlty" as I agree with comments that psyching frequently against novice/beginners/ or pickup partnershipship is not ethical.  I do psyche both vul and nonvul. Obviously the risk of psycing vulnerable are much greater, so these are more careful psyches.

Ben

I still have problems "getting my head around" the fine
ethical lines here.

Is including comments that you psyche entirely a "good
ethical" thing to do?

Isn't that sowing a seed of doubt "for free"?

Isn't it more "ethical" to psyche with a pickup partner
than someone who knows you?

Once again,I am not for banning psyches,as this thread
started out asking.
I am very concerned about the ethical side of psyches.


Frode

You misunderstood me. The pick up partner is not MY partner, the pickup partnership I am talking about is the pair I am playing against. The same with I don't psyce against novice or beginners...

If I was to play against JRG and Pclayton, I would feel perfectly fine with psyching like crazy against them. If my regular partner and I are at a table and one fellow joins on my right, and another fellow joins on my left, and they talk back and forth about what to play and settle on sayc or 2/1 (so obvious very new to each other), I would never psyche against them (well, never is strong, if parnter preempt 3 of a minor and I am go bust not vul, and next hand passes, I might try 3NT...something like that, but it would be extremely rare).

[Brandal]

inquiry, on Mar 2 2005, 09:32 AM, said:

I would never psyche against them (well, never is strong, if parnter preempt 3 of a minor and I am go bust not vul, and next hand passes, I might try 3NT...something like that, but it would be extremely rare).

Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding Ben

Another thing which I quoted,is "gambling" on a 3NT
bid after pd preempt say 3C a psyche?

Say with one honor third in pd's suit and 1 stop in
the other suits?

I thought a psyche bid was somewhere you don't
want to be at the end of the bidding?

[luke warm]

if my partner opened 3 anything and i was honor 3rd, with stoppers, i'd surely bid 3nt... if he had psyched, well so be it... i can't speak for ben, but i suspect he'd do the same

[Brandal]

luke warm, on Mar 2 2005, 06:41 PM, said:

if my partner opened 3 anything and i was honor 3rd, with stoppers, i'd surely bid 3nt... if he had psyched, well so be it... i can't speak for ben, but i suspect he'd do the same

I guess I misunderstood Ben again,I thought he
referred to the 3NT bid as some sort of psyche



I better give up now

[the hog]

Ben was!
What he was saying was that opposite a say 3C opening nv vs vul he would bid 3N on
xx
xxxx
xxxx
Kxx
or similar. This is a very common psyche! Even 9 off gains on the hand.

[Brandal]

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2005, 06:49 PM, said:

Ben was!
What he was saying was that opposite a say 3C opening nv vs vul he would bid 3N on
xx
xxxx
xxxx
Kxx
or similar. This is a very common psyche! Even 9 off gains on the hand.

[fred]

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2005, 11:49 PM, said:

Ben was!
What he was saying was that opposite a say 3C opening nv vs vul he would bid 3N on
xx
xxxx
xxxx
Kxx
or similar. This is a very common psyche! Even 9 off gains on the hand.

Agree with everything Hog says here, except I would not consider this a psych!

A psych can only take place if a partnership has an agreement as to the type of hand that should be expected for a bid. 3NT is not the type of bid that "shows" anything (other than desire to play in 3NT).

You can psych a 1H opening, because 1H "promises" 5 or more hearts and 12 or more points (or whatever) so it is easy to decide if a given player that opens 1H on a given hand is psyching or not.

However, the 3NT response to a 3C preempt doesn't "show" or "deny" anything. It is a purely natural bid that means "I think it is in the best interest of our partnership to try to win 9 tricks at notrump". That doesn't imply that you think you can *make* 3NT, just that you are willing to play there.

Sure you would usually have stoppers in the other suits and some kind of club fit to bid 3NT here, but you might be lacking a stopper and gambling on the lead, have another solid suit on the side, or have something like 4441 and 25 HCP. As Ben and Hog point out, you also might have a hand that offers absolutely no hope of winning 9 tricks, but that doesn't make your 3NT call a psych (since your partnership has no agreements in this area that you can deviate from).

In contrast, a forcing 3S response to a 3C response is different since, if you make this call, you are "showing" something specific (spade length and strengh as well as some high card values). Therefore the 3S call can be psyched.

This view is probably somewhat radical (and I must admit that I never thought about this before I read Hog's post), but after reading it over a couple of times it still makes sense to me

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[the hog]

"This view is probably somewhat radical (and I must admit that I never thought about this before I read Hog's post), but after reading it over a couple of times it still makes sense to me"

This is a really interesting post, Fred, as we had this very discussion here 2 weeks ago on the very same auction. The perp argued the same case - 3NT is not a psyche, it is a desire to play 3NT (undoubled), and says nothing else. I agree with this definition btw. The director - a very competent td - also agreed with this view.

The question then arose as to what a 2NT enquiry and sign off means over a multi auction or even a 2NT ogust bid over a weak 2.

eg
2S 2N
3C 3S on say Kxx xx xxxx xxxx or similar
I guess you would need to alert that the 2NT bid could possibly be of this nature.

[hrothgar]

fred, on Mar 3 2005, 03:17 AM, said:

Agree with everything Hog says here, except I would not consider this a psych!

A psych can only take place if a partnership has an agreement as to the type of hand that should be expected for a bid. 3NT is not the type of bid that "shows" anything (other than desire to play in 3NT).

...

This view is probably somewhat radical (and I must admit that I never thought about this before I read Hog's post), but after reading it over a couple of times it still makes sense to me

Feel the POWER of the dark side... With a few more steps, your journey will be complete!

Lets assume for the moment that partner opens 3♣ and you hold the magic hand

♠ xx
♥ xxx
♦ xxxx
♣ Kxxx

There are a number of bids that could be considered with this hand...

A simple raise to 4♣
A jump raise to 5♣
Bidding 3N "to play"

I pose the following question:

Will you always chose to make the same bid with the hand in question?

[Brandal]

fred, on Mar 2 2005, 07:17 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 2 2005, 11:49 PM, said:

Ben was!
What he was saying was that opposite a say 3C opening nv vs vul he would bid 3N on
xx
xxxx
xxxx
Kxx
or similar. This is a very common psyche! Even 9 off gains on the hand.

Agree with everything Hog says here, except I would not consider this a psych!

A psych can only take place if a partnership has an agreement as to the type of hand that should be expected for a bid. 3NT is not the type of bid that "shows" anything (other than desire to play in 3NT).

You can psych a 1H opening, because 1H "promises" 5 or more hearts and 12 or more points (or whatever) so it is easy to decide if a given player that opens 1H on a given hand is psyching or not.

However, the 3NT response to a 3C preempt doesn't "show" or "deny" anything. It is a purely natural bid that means "I think it is in the best interest of our partnership to try to win 9 tricks at notrump". That doesn't imply that you think you can *make* 3NT, just that you are willing to play there.

Sure you would usually have stoppers in the other suits and some kind of club fit to bid 3NT here, but you might be lacking a stopper and gambling on the lead, have another solid suit on the side, or have something like 4441 and 25 HCP. As Ben and Hog point out, you also might have a hand that offers absolutely no hope of winning 9 tricks, but that doesn't make your 3NT call a psych (since your partnership has no agreements in this area that you can deviate from).

In contrast, a forcing 3S response to a 3C response is different since, if you make this call, you are "showing" something specific (spade length and strengh as well as some high card values). Therefore the 3S call can be psyched.

This view is probably somewhat radical (and I must admit that I never thought about this before I read Hog's post), but after reading it over a couple of times it still makes sense to me

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

thank you Fred

This makes sense.

I'm still concerned with psyches easily becoming
an ethical problem,an unusual "agreement" after
only a few psyches within the partnership.

What's your take on that?

Where do "we" draw the line?

How many times before "Oh,I didn't know..." becomes
a "lie"?



My wording isn't very good,I hope you understand
what I mean

[fred]

Brandal, on Mar 3 2005, 12:49 AM, said:

thank you Fred

This makes sense.

I'm still concerned with psyches easily becoming
an ethical problem,an unusual "agreement" after
only a few psyches within the partnership.

What's your take on that?

Where do "we" draw the line?

How many times before "Oh,I didn't know..." becomes
a "lie"?



My wording isn't very good,I hope you understand
what I mean

I think there are 2 issues here:

1) Partnerships should "alert" when specific psychs become part of their system (assuming these systems are still legal - otherwise they must stop making these specific psychs, at least for a while).

2) Partnerships should not be allowed to "field psychs" (to me this means successfully guessing that your partner has psyched when your hand and the auction don't give you enough information to be close to certain about this).

Unfortunately there are no clear answers as to where the line(s) should be drawn. Some clubs/tournaments try to draw lines by limiting the number of psychs per session or by making specific types of psychs illegal. Others try to keep detailed records of partnerhships' psyching histories and use knowledgable players to look over these records and try to determine if abuses have taken place.

In my experience none of these measures work in the real world. Between this, the sad fact that a significant percentage of regular partnerships who psych are either unaware of or intentionally ignore their ethical responsibilities in this area, and that psyching causes so many people to get upset, I have a lot of sympathy for the TDs and club managers who choose to ban psychs in the events they run. This is despite the fact that agree 100% that, in a perfect world, psyching should be part of our game.

I agree that you should be concerned that many regular partnerships who psych do not follow 1) and 2) above. Some know better. Others do not. Of those that do not know better, player educational will hopefully make a difference. Those that intentionally ignore their ethical responsibilities regarding psychs are basically cheating. Better TD education will help us to catch these people and remove them from our communities ("real" and/or online), but to do this properly you really need to to start a "psych registry" to depend on all players to call the TD whenever they think a psych has occurred, and to depend on highly skilled, objective, and trustworthy volunteers to maintain and review these records. As I said above, I don't think this is a practical solution.

So I think that we had all better get used to the fact that some pairs with questionable ethics regarding psyching will always exist and that some of these are going to always get away with it. The same is true of players who take advantage of their partners' hesitations or talk on the phone with their partners when they are playing online bridge. All we can do is hope to educate new players concerning right and wrong and hope that most of our fellow bridge players are also decent human beings and good sportsmen.

Or we could change the rules of bridge and outlaw psychs completely. No I am not suggesting that this is the right answer.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Gerben47]

I agree with Fred that 3NT is not a psych. 3NT takes complete control so there is no agreement about what hands should bid 3NT. The agreement is: "If I bid 3NT you pass".

Another example of a non-natural bid that is not a psyche:

1NT dbl rdbl and you have:
xxxx
xxxx
xxxx
x

Opponents are about to double you in anything your bid. Great... The solution is to bid 2♣ and make an SOS redouble afterwards.
The 2♣ shows willingness to play 2♣ undoubled (but not doubled) and is not alertable, or banned by any psych regulations. It is not a psych, it's a tactical bid (i.e. making a bid on a hand that would not be standard for the bid but will probably work best after all).
The SOS redouble must be alerted as is it an agreement or at least "agreed Bridge logic".

I would adopt a mixed strategy (here we go again!) on hrothgar's magic hand. Sometimes I would bid 4♣ or 5♣, sometimes I would bid 3NT.

An example where a mixed strategy is the best strategy:

---

Declarer cashes the king, small, small and you have several strategies:
a) Always play the Queen
Always play the Jack
c) Sometimes play the Queen, sometimes play the Jack.

One can calculate that the best strategy of this position is to play the Queen 50% of the time and the Jack 50% of the time. Now no one would disallow that, so a mixed strategy in the bidding is also allowed.

[Arsen]

adibou, on Feb 24 2005, 09:23 AM, said:

Can the TD on BBO they prohibit the psys in their tournaments?

That seems to me completely insane, since the bridge exists, the share of psychic biddings always held a role.
I think that our more famous couple of the bridge, that which made our play so popular, the Culbertson must be turned over some in their tombs.

Do your opinions interest me, the TD have they it right to prohibit the psychic ones in their tournaments?

I have started to run tourneys at BBO very recently, and I come cross this bids.

Since those bids can not be alerted (to be seen only by TD) and there is no such function on the software in use I am not allowing "psyche" bids during my tourneys.

I have examined general "approach" to psyches and agree it is the part of this game however "at least" TD is to be informed when done. Due to "workload" of the TD those tables might not be attended "punctually" and it may cause "problems" on the game in progress eventually.

As a common approach to this situation on many bridge clubs it was allowed once or twice in a season. Since we serve "random" players unable to monitor and mark them. On the other hand when its done on repetition it might have been "guessed" by the partner and turns to a hidden agreement.

I am still "neutral" on those bids but I dont allow "psyche" on my tourneys.

Your comments will be appreciated.

Arsen

[Brandal]

Arsen, on Mar 10 2005, 08:57 AM, said:

adibou, on Feb 24 2005, 09:23 AM, said:

Can the TD on BBO they prohibit the psys in their tournaments?

That seems to me completely insane, since the bridge exists, the share of psychic biddings always held a role.
I think that our more famous couple of the bridge, that which made our play so popular, the Culbertson must be turned over some in their tombs.

Do your opinions interest me, the TD have they it right to prohibit the psychic ones in their tournaments?

I have started to run tourneys at BBO very recently, and I come cross this bids.

Since those bids can not be alerted (to be seen only by TD) and there is no such function on the software in use I am not allowing "psyche" bids during my tourneys.

I have examined general "approach" to psyches and agree it is the part of this game however "at least" TD is to be informed when done. Due to "workload" of the TD those tables might not be attended "punctually" and it may cause "problems" on the game in progress eventually.

As a common approach to this situation on many bridge clubs it was allowed once or twice in a season. Since we serve "random" players unable to monitor and mark them. On the other hand when its done on repetition it might have been "guessed" by the partner and turns to a hidden agreement.

I am still "neutral" on those bids but I dont allow "psyche" on my tourneys.

Your comments will be appreciated.

Arsen

According to some,psyching is such an integral part of bridge
that without them it isn't bridge.
According to others,it is possible to enjoy bridge without psyches.

I'm sure you've read the posts,and found a wide variety
of opinions.

I think you should run your tourney the way you feel is best.

There will be people disagreeing with you either way
and it is hard to please everyone

[hotShot]

Arsen,
if you come to the table, if a player informed you over a psyche, one might as well alert it .

[Walddk]

Arsen, on Mar 10 2005, 08:57 AM, said:

I am still "neutral" on those bids but I dont allow "psyche" on my tourneys.

Your comments will be appreciated.

Arsen

Run your tourneys as you see fit. People who don't like psyches will come to your tourneys, those who think psyches should be allowed will not come. Quite simple.

Roland

[inquiry]

Arsen, on Mar 10 2005, 09:57 AM, said:

Since those bids can not be alerted (to be seen only by TD) and there is no such function on the software in use I am not allowing "psyche" bids during my tourneys.

(snip)

Your comments will be appreciated.

Arsen

The big problem now is trying to determine if an "odd bid" is a psyche or not.

Opening 1NT (15-17) with 14 or 18?

Cue-bidding a suit without a stopper?

Opening first chair with a 10 count, or a 9 count?

Opening third chair with a "preempt" that most opened one of suit with?

A misclick (was it a psyche or an accidental click).

A 1NT opening bid with right hcp but a singleton?

You will get yourself involved in a lot of disputes, if your players realize, that psyche's are not allowed.. disputes over rather this bid or that one was a psyche or not.

ben