[damitall]

Playing any system the contract of 4H is easy to reach.Playing Precision it goes 1C-1D-1S-P
1Nt-P-4H All pass.
Playing Old Fashioned Goren it simply goes 1H-4H.

[helene_t]

1♦-1♠
2♣-2♠
2NT-4♥

[Cyberyeti]

 Jinksy, on 2014-September-07, 20:26, said:

I think you're mixing threads up? I was an advocate of 1N opening on the stiff K hand, but I don't see any reason to rebid NTs just because P bids your singleton.

Correct on the mixing threads up.

Much of the same logic applies though, the reverse shows 5 in the minor categorically, and all subsequent bidding is based on that. Partner knows I may only have 1 spade for the 1N rebid although that is rare, and often will find that out for definite later, and the 10 may well not be worthless if he does go back to spades. I'm not starting 1♦-1♠-2♣ as partner might well pass that with what he thinks is a misfitting heap like xxxxx, Axxx, x, J10x.

[Zelandakh]

As has been pointed out, this hand can be bid in any number of ways depending on the flavour of Acol and the willingness to bend the rules for reverses. If North shows hearts at any point it is easy. If South bids diamonds then clubs then sfi's auction would also work despite Frances' reservations to this approach. My own system auction will depend on whether the North hand gets treated as 17 or 18.

If 17 then:

1♦ = up to 17, unbal, 4+ diamonds
... - 1♠ = nat, non forcing
1NT = 4 hearts
... - 3♥ = nat invite (hand improved by fit)
4♥

If 18 then:

1♣ = 15-17 nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♦ 0 most non-GF hands
1♠ = 18+ 3-suited or unbal GF
... - 1NT = max
2♣ = 3-suited
... - 2♦ = relay
2♥ = short spade
... - 2♠ = relay
2NT = min (~18-21)
... - 3♣ = relay
3♦ = 1444, min (~18-19)
... - 3♥ = relay
4♦ = 6 controls
... - 4♥

[msjennifer]

So simple when playing Goren ! one heart -- 4 hearts.

[Jinksy]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-September-08, 07:50, said:

Correct on the mixing threads up.

Much of the same logic applies though, the reverse shows 5 in the minor categorically, and all subsequent bidding is based on that. Partner knows I may only have 1 spade for the 1N rebid although that is rare, and often will find that out for definite later, and the 10 may well not be worthless if he does go back to spades. I'm not starting 1♦-1♠-2♣ as partner might well pass that with what he thinks is a misfitting heap like xxxxx, Axxx, x, J10x.

Comes down to agreements, I suppose. I play in bog-standard Acol that NT rebids categorically show at worst at doubleton, and we frequently bend the rules to distort our minor holdings just to give us a forcing bid.

Eg holding Kx KQxxxx AJx xx, I might rebid 2♦ after 1♣ 1♥ / 2♣, since 2♠ would be non-forcing and 3♠ would exaggerate the quality of the suit (and still wouldn't be forcing with some partners!).

[Cyberyeti]

 Jinksy, on 2014-September-09, 05:19, said:

Comes down to agreements, I suppose. I play in bog-standard Acol that NT rebids categorically show at worst at doubleton, and we frequently bend the rules to distort our minor holdings just to give us a forcing bid.

Eg holding Kx KQxxxx AJx xx, I might rebid 2♦ after 1♣ 1♥ / 2♣, since 2♠ would be non-forcing and 3♠ would exaggerate the quality of the suit (and still wouldn't be forcing with some partners!).

I presume you mean 2♥ not 2♠.

We play a fully artificial inv+ 2♦ over 1♣-1suit-2♣ as we recognise this problem, meaning we almost never have to bid 3 card suits.

We also without playing WJS play 1♣-1♥-2♣-2♥ as encouraging and rarely passed, partner would open 1♣, rebid 2♣ and pass 2♥ with say QJ, J, Qxxx, KQ10xxx

[FM75]

 Wackojack, on 2014-September-07, 02:43, said:

I am interested in how the bidding would go playing:

1. Acol 12-14 no trump with and without Crowhust
2. SA 15-17 5542 or 5533 with:
simple 2♣ check back;
new minor forcing;
2-way check back;
transfer Walsh.

---

It is MP pairs btw if that influences your decision.

If South opens 1♣ there may or may not be an overcall of 1♦by East. I am particularly interested in how Acol players would bid this.

Thank you in advance

2♦ (16-23, any 4441) 2♥ (basically denying any 6 card suits
2♠ (16-19) 2N (relay, where is singleton?)
3♥ (singleton spade) 3♠ control ask
4♦ (6 controls A=2, K=1)

Thinking... If p has the single spade king, he can't be counting that in the 6 honors...So it could be Aces in spades, diamonds, clubs and no kings. but with 4-7 hcp in hearts, diamonds, clubs. Otherwise it is two aces and two kings, but not the ♠K and we have not agreed trump, but I know he has spade singleton and he knows, that I know.
Trumps are not agreed. 4♥ is to play, 5♥ first or second round control and slam interest.
6♥ should have good play

[Zelandakh]

FM, your auction is similar to mine except that your Opener might be a couple of points lighter. The thing that you are missing is the ♥Q. If you are using the usual Roman structure then 4♠ from you over 4♦ should ask for queens. That would not be unreasonable but I think jumping directly to 6 is clearly wrong.

[FM75]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-September-12, 01:46, said:

FM, your auction is similar to mine except that your Opener might be a couple of points lighter. The thing that you are missing is the ♥Q. If you are using the usual Roman structure then 4♠ from you over 4♦ should ask for queens. That would not be unreasonable but I think jumping directly to 6 is clearly wrong.

I was not clear here. We do not have an asking bid in this auction after the control ask. So 4 hearts by south would be to play. I like your 4 spade idea, but with trumps unset, it is not clear how north should take this - in our current system. So I invented a 5 heart call tossing the decision of whether to bid on to opener. In this instance, he will know that south has the trump Ace, but he won't know much else, except that south chose the strain as required.

Thanks for your comment. Something I should discuss with partner.

[Zelandakh]

Read Chris Ryall's write-up of the Roman option within his 2♣ opening. Once controls are given the cheapest of a cue of the short suit and a 4/5NT call asks Opener to bid the cheapest suit in which they do not hold the queen. Bidding a new suit by Responder is now a queen ask in that suit. His solution is not quite optimal but it is close enough to provide a basis for agreement and discussion.

[SteveMoe]

Precision:
1♣ - 1♠
3N* - 4♥
5♣ - 5♦
6♥

3N is 16-17 1=4=4=4.

[Zelandakh]

 SteveMoe, on 2014-September-12, 17:12, said:

Precision:

So Opener shows their exact hand shape within 2 points, Responder signs off and Opener goes again - sounds like a great system.

[SteveMoe]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-September-13, 07:08, said:

So Opener shows their exact hand shape within 2 points, Responder signs off and Opener goes again - sounds like a great system.

C'mon Zel, Opener has enough to be safe at the 5 level when partner is 5=4+...not a real stretch at all....

[the hog]

 SteveMoe, on 2014-September-13, 19:13, said:

C'mon Zel, Opener has enough to be safe at the 5 level when partner is 5=4+...not a real stretch at all....

I agree with Zel. This bidding is farcical. Responder has signed off and the hand that has totally described itself moves. Sorry, but this is off the planet.

[Zelandakh]

 SteveMoe, on 2014-September-13, 19:13, said:

C'mon Zel, Opener has enough to be safe at the 5 level when partner is 5=4+...not a real stretch at all....

What I think would be systemically better is for Opener to show their hand as 18-19. Then Responder can decide.

[ping2827]

Playing Precision:
North open 1♣,
South bid 2♠ = 8+, 5-5 two suits;
North 2NT = asking,
South 3♦ = majors;
North 3♥ = my pick;
South 4♥, no extra.

North could also bid 4♥ directly showing minimum.

[Cthulhu D]

I think I'd go 1D-1S-2H, but it's hard to see bidding past 4H. I guess if south decides that he's got 'extras' after the reverse and bids 3H rather than a picture bid 4H? Given that all souths values are in the majors 4H seems likely.

It's a lot easier if south opens, then playing Ekrens it goes 2H-2NT-3D (showing max 5/5 majors), and North has a ton better idea what is going on, and at a lower level too.

[antonylee]

My initial auction is similar the one suggested by others
1D[unbal]-1S
2C[D+H any strength]-3H[nat inv] (one can argue 2C should show 4=5 but 1444 doesn't exist in the system anyways)
Now opener knows responder is at least 5=4 in the majors... it'll take a pretty unlucky case to be down at the 5-level (we expect one spade loser and one in the minors -- if partner doesn't have the HA he can surely cover another loser). Bidding 3S (cue) may induce responder to take a rosier view of his hand than warranted but indeed we just want to know if his hand is terrible or not.
Heh, who knows.

[chasetb]

1♦ - 2♥ (Less than INV, 5+ ♠ & 4+ ♥)
2NT (Asks) - 3♦ (5+ ♥)
4♥