[eagles123]

imps - best bid for south?

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thanks,

Eagles

[wank]

i bid 1nt. it's the safest way to show my considerable values. jumping to 3d on that suit would make me feel ill and bidding 2D would suggest the perpetrator had a game bonus phobia. hopefully partner will have the good sense to cue hearts to check i've got a stop before going to 3nt if he doesn't have one. if he does have a stop himself, it will normally be better played from our hand (think lho with kqtxx of hearts and partner with ax for example). note that rho didn't raise. that increases the prospects of partner having a suitable heart holding.
:
it's common to show one's shape without reference to stops at a low level. think of the following sequence playing strong NT: 1c (1s) x (p) and your hand is xxx jxx Aqx Aqxx. your only sensible option is 1NT.

[eagles123]

thanks I did bid 1N at the table but my P said I should have bid 2D. I see the vote is pretty even at the moment so maybe we're both right

Eagles

[gszes]

I definitely have the right values and shape for 1NT but
that just seems plain misguided given the lack of a heart
stopper when the opps are known to have at least 5 of them
in one hand (and they both know it). There is a bid here which
caters nicely to this situation since we are a passed hand

2h

It should be obvious we are close to max for a passed hand but have
no other clear cut bid. partner should be able to make a decent
choice knowing we don't have too much in hearts for our failure
to bid some number of NT. In many ways I think of 2h here as a 1n bid
without a heart stopper.

3d is not too far off but the putrid quality of our not-so-long
diamonds scares me. At imps bidding 2d could be done with xxx xxx
xxxx xxx and our hand is sooooooooo much better than that we really
need to try something rather than a mere paltry 2d.

For those that feel this hand is not good enough to invite --- how much
more would you need to consider this hand invitational?? Those 2 aces
are pretty darn good for a passed hand and even the heart Jxx might
come in handy as a partial stopper for NT (we need p to show some
game interest though).

The other downside of the 1n response is the negative effect that might have
on the bidding if p has extra values and heart shortness. We might easily miss
a slam or 5 of a minor when p think we actually have stuff in the heart suit.

[johnu]

Using a scoring system where there are no really bad bids,

1NT = 10
2♠ = 6
3♦ = 6
3♠ = 6
3NT = 6
2♦ = 3
Pass = 3
Redouble = 3
1♦ = 3

[PhilKing]

There is a Bayesian inference in this type of auction that is generally overlooked - the lack of a heart raise reduces the odds that partner has a shapey minimum take-out double.

For my money, 1NT is miles ahead of the alternatives.

[dolph924]

Do you want to play with this partner again? Yes? Bid 3D or 2H. No? Bid 1N. 1N is felony masterminding and partner will not be amused when he raises and they cash the first five heart tricks against 3N. If you bid 2H, at least as a passed hand, it should show strength but no suit. Jumping in your longest unbid suit is the traditional way to show 9-11 points.

[johnu]

johnu, on 2014-May-12, 13:37, said:

Using a scoring system where there are no really bad bids,

1NT = 10
2♠ = 6
3♦ = 6
3♠ = 6
3NT = 6
2♦ = 3
Pass = 3
Redouble = 3
1♦ = 3

Also, 2♥ = 2.9

[whereagles]

It's really a "1NT wtp" bid.

[ArtK78]

I know that on these fora the popular choice will be 1NT. But I have had very bad experiences with this sort of bid. Enough so that I choose to respond in my 4 card suit.

Given my values, the traditional bid is 3♦, and that is my choice. If partner is looking for 3NT, he can bid 3♥, and, in that case, I will risk 3NT. But if partner has a traditional takeout double, this hand will play better in diamonds than any other strain, and game is not out of the question.

Color me scared.

[helene_t]

This hand looks awfull opposite the typical 3244. If partner passes 2♦ we may well have 25 HCPs between us but even so I don't see which game we could make.

[cvcherry]

I'm a beginner but I won't choose either of the listed bids.

I won't choose 1NT, I think it's wrong to bid 1NT without real stopper, partner may go to hopeless 3NT.

Because I can't bid 1NT and must bid a suit, the ♥J has no value to me. I can say I have 9 points, jump bid is (9-11), but I think the shape is so ugly that I will downgrade the hand and think it not enough for a jump bid. So 3♦ and 2♥ are out of the question. 2♦ is a reasonable choice, but I prefer 1♠ to 2♦, because if my partnership do have enough strength and can't play 3NT, usually 4♠ is a better game contract

[Zelandakh]

johnu, on 2014-May-12, 13:37, said:

3♠ = 6
3NT = 6
2♥ = 2.9

3♠ and 3NT get more than double the points of 2♥? Are we looking at the same problem? I think I would give 1NT 10, 2♥ 6 or 7, 3NT 1 and 3♠ 0.

[aguahombre]

dolph924, on 2014-May-12, 15:41, said:

Do you want to play with this partner again? Yes? Bid 3D or 2H. No? Bid 1N. 1N is felony masterminding and partner will not be amused when he raises and they cash the first five heart tricks against 3N. If you bid 2H, at least as a passed hand, it should show strength but no suit. Jumping in your longest unbid suit is the traditional way to show 9-11 points.

Whether I want to play with this partner again or not, I will trust her at the moment. I trust her to recognize my actual holding is a distinct possibility when RHO has not raised. If she blasts 3NT without a heart partial rather than giving a gentle probe with 2H first, then I might contemplate our future arrangement.

I share Art's shot at popular/stylish choices of BBF'rs in general, but disagree this time.

I would probably choose a responsive Double if Hearts were raised; 3D being a far-distant second choice under that pressure and not a very good choice after RHO's Pass of Pard's double.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2014-May-13, 10:34

[johnu]

Zelandakh, on 2014-May-13, 10:09, said:

3♠ and 3NT get more than double the points of 2♥? Are we looking at the same problem? I think I would give 1NT 10, 2♥ 6 or 7, 3NT 1 and 3♠ 0.

There are no truly bad bids in this rating system Your point is taken so I raise the score for 2♥ to 3.0, the same as 2♦. One bid is a nothing underbid, the other is an overbid without a clear direction and no guaranteed fit.

P.S. Additional scores

4NT (Blackwood) = 3
5♦ = 3

[kuhchung]

johnu, on 2014-May-13, 11:15, said:

There are no truly bad bids in this rating system Your point is taken so I raise the score for 2♥ to 3.0, the same as 2♦. One bid is a nothing underbid, the other is an overbid without a clear direction and no guaranteed fit.

P.S. Additional scores

4NT (Blackwood) = 3
5♦ = 3

thanks nige1

[wank]

cvcherry, on 2014-May-13, 09:53, said:

I won't choose 1NT, I think it's wrong to bid 1NT without real stopper, partner may go to hopeless 3NT.

a good partner won't drive us to 3nt with nothing in hearts himself without checking we have a stop.

[lrussell]

wank, on 2014-May-13, 17:42, said:

a good partner won't drive us to 3nt with nothing in hearts himself without checking we have a stop.

And when he does I guess it's his fault!

[aguahombre]

wank, on 2014-May-13, 17:42, said:

a good partner won't drive us to 3nt with nothing in hearts himself without checking we have a stop.

lrussell, on 2014-May-13, 21:22, said:

And when he does I guess it's his fault!

When he does, he isn't defined as a good partner for the purposes under discussion. He has failed to take into account a reasonable, practical advance to his takeout double. Of course, he would be taking the charge unless he had applied common sense or read Wank's post.

[Mbodell]

It takes a parlay for 1nt to go badly. Partner has to drive to a high level, partner has to have no help in hearts, the opponents have to figure out to lead hearts, and they have to unblock and run. That happens some times. Often times one or more of the above doesn't happen and then 1nt will be ahead. for instance, give partner the KQxx 8xx AQx KQx type hand that might bid 3nt over 1nt. Give opener something like xx AQTxx KTx Jxx and they might "know" you have the Kx or Kxx of hearts and be afraid that is your 9th trick and lead something else hoping to (on a great day) find partner to lead a heart through, and if not hope that you can't come to 9 tricks and are forced to break hearts and go down. Give partner KJxx Qx AQx KJxx and now you have a heart stop. You might need a finesse or two to make 9, but they rate to be on. Give partner a weaker hand like KQxx xxx ATx KJxx and now partner will be passing 1nt so the opponents running 5, or even 6, hearts is not fatal.