[benlessard]

I think the slammish hands I hate the most are when your losers are in trumps.

AJ9xx--xxxx (missing KQTx) and slam is 57%.

AJT9x-xxx (missing KQxxx) and slam is 74%.

Lets focus on the slam potential of the K&Q of trumps when you have 9 trumps or less.

If your missing an ace, missing the K or Q of trumps is enough for stop short of slam. So they look similar.

If your only missing a crucial side K/Q + the K or Q of trumps they look similar since slams are often going to be 75% and should often be bid.

If you missing both K&Q of trumps its clear the K of spades is worth less than an ace. It can easily be a 75% slam.

When you hold the J&T of trumps the K seems to behave like a Q most of the times and rarely like an ace.

Its really when you have more than 10 trumps that there is a big difference between the K and Q of trumps or when the Jack is missing.



My idea is instead of replying keycards we stick to aces and instead of making a Q ask we do a K&Q ask with the replies

0 or 2 as the first step

1 without the following card

1+1 etc.

Since the ask if after the aces it should be easy to differentiate between 0 or 2 most of the times.



3NT = 1or 4 aces

4C = 3 or 0 aces

4D = 2 aces with 0or2 KQ trumps

4H = 2 aces with 1 K/Q of trumps but not the next card

4S = 2 aces + 1K/Q of trumps etc..



Ex

S is trumps and 3S is ask for aces.

3S--3NT(1or4)

4C(ask K/Q) --4H (Kor Q of trumps but not the next card)



However when you have 10 trumps or more this idea is poor since the Q is worth little while the K is of high values.

In short since with 9 trump or less the K of trumps is closer to the Q of trumps than an ace for slam potential maybe we should take this into account for our keycards.

I have done a little testing and it seems playable, im planning to do a more serious testing soon , however im fishing for some ideas or feedback on the subject.

[Zelandakh]

Look up old posts from Ken Rexford - he did some work on this subject. Here is one - there is another somewhere with more detail but I do not have a link for it. You might also just buy the book...

[dake50]

My beef with key ask has always been the 5 or 7 hand.
If the trump K is the missing key, onside finesse makes grand
offside won't make 6. So the payoff is great to bid that grand.
How can key asker ever know the missing key is that trump K?
Second beef is why start so high with asking? Lazy system design
- really can't assign a eg. 3C jump as A-ask and relay trump ask, show K, show Q.

[PrecisionL]

dake50, on 2013-November-21, 12:58, said:

My beef with key ask has always been the 5 or 7 hand.
If the trump K is the missing key, onside finesse makes grand
offside won't make 6. So the payoff is great to bid that grand.
How can key asker ever know the missing key is that trump K?
Second beef is why start so high with asking? Lazy system design
- really can't assign a eg. 3C jump as A-ask and relay trump ask, show K, show Q.

Yes you can design a 3-level jump as an Ace-ask.
Jannersten Precision had an asking bid that could be used even when the bidding did not start with 1♣.

The asking bid is initiated by a jump in either suit after a game force is in effect (works best in a 1♣ auction after a positive response).

Replies: Cheapest NT = No Ace and No honor in suit asked.

Raise = No Ace but an honor in the asked suit (Q, K, or A).

Other suit = Ace of suit and no honor in asked suit.

Jump in a suit = Ace of suit and a trump honor.

Jump in NT = No honor in trumps, but 2 Side Aces.

Jump in Asked suit = 2 Aces and one trump honor.

I don't use it anymore as we play Beta Asking Bids (Asks for Controls, A = 2 and K = 1).

Beta or Jannersten's Asking Bid can also be used after 1♣ - 1♦ - 3M.

[awm]

I don't think this really says much about the king of trumps. Barring an eleven-plus card fit, the trump king is basically always at least half a trick (sometimes more like a full trick). The queen of trumps on the other hand ranges from being a critical card to almost irrelevant, mostly dependent on size of trump fit (and a bit on the presence of king/jack/ten).

[kenrexford]

awm, on 2013-November-22, 12:29, said:

I don't think this really says much about the king of trumps. Barring an eleven-plus card fit, the trump king is basically always at least half a trick (sometimes more like a full trick). The queen of trumps on the other hand ranges from being a critical card to almost irrelevant, mostly dependent on size of trump fit (and a bit on the presence of king/jack/ten).

It is not a question of the value of the trump king but rather the compared value of the alternative ace.

[dake50]

Jannersten Precision had an asking bid ..

*** That is exactly where I first started to think 3-level slam tries.