[the hog]

Assume that you play 2/1 or any system where a 2/1 bid is a gf, such as many flavours of Polish Club, for example.
Many players, not just on this site use 1M 2C as a balanced game force or as a hand with a genuine C suit. This appears to be becoming more common amongst expert players. I have some questions.

Lets say the bidding starts with
1S 2C
2H
Responder has
a) xxx AJxx Kxx KQx
b) x AJxx Kx AQxxxx
What do you bid? 3H? If you bid 3H, how do you distinguish hand a) from hand b)

If you make the systemic decision that on hand a) you bid 4H over 2H, would that not take away from the picture bid holding of xx AQxx xx AKJxx. - this hand for me would be bid with 2C followed by 4H over opener's 2H rebid.
It seems to me that with hand a) you either have to go via 4th suit forcing or via 2NT, initially hiding the Heart fit. To treat both holdings the same way by raising 2H to 3 seems very poor as two totally different hand types are being described with the same bidding sequence. What do others do?

[sfi]

the hog, on 2013-October-15, 00:23, said:

Responder has
a) xxx AJxx Kxx KQx
b) x AJxx Kx AQxxxx
What do you bid? 3H? If you bid 3H, how do you distinguish hand a) from hand b)

I play something like this in one regular partnership, but we also use 2C as an invitational raise of the major.

In your first hand, I would bid 2NT first with the expectation of bidding 4H later. If it were slightly weaker, we would simply jump to 4H on this hand to show an invitational spade raise with 4H as well, but it would be reasonable to define this as a minimum balanced GF hand and bid that here. That way, you could show a slam try by going through 2NT first and then either 4H or cuebidding on the next round depending on strength. The good news is that partner can't really stuff up your plan that badly by bidding 3H, because you can now cuebid without fear of being misunderstood.

That frees up 3H to show clubs and hearts as in your second example. You could even define 3S as a splinter and show the hand quite well on the second round.

[rhm]

the hog, on 2013-October-15, 00:23, said:

Assume that you play 2/1 or any system where a 2/1 bid is a gf, such as many flavours of Polish Club, for example.
Many players, not just on this site use 1M 2C as a balanced game force or as a hand with a genuine C suit. This appears to be becoming more common amongst expert players. I have some questions.

Lets say the bidding starts with
1S 2C
2H
Responder has
a) xxx AJxx Kxx KQx
b) x AJxx Kx AQxxxx
What do you bid? 3H? If you bid 3H, how do you distinguish hand a) from hand b)

If you make the systemic decision that on hand a) you bid 4H over 2H, would that not take away from the picture bid holding of xx AQxx xx AKJxx. - this hand for me would be bid with 2C followed by 4H over opener's 2H rebid.
It seems to me that with hand a) you either have to go via 4th suit forcing or via 2NT, initially hiding the Heart fit. To treat both holdings the same way by raising 2H to 3 seems very poor as two totally different hand types are being described with the same bidding sequence. What do others do?

There are different philosophies you can apply:

1) Balanced hand must rebid 2NT before showing support. This is simple and workable. Opener can now bid a minor suit fragment and responder can bid 3♥. If opener bids 3NT he shows 5=4=2=2 and responder can continue (usually) or gamble 3NT (rarely). You gain useful information about opener's hand, for example whether he has five cards in hearts.
2) Bid 3H anyway. Why do you need to distinguish a) from b)? Opener needs to be aware that you can have either hand. He knows responders only possible long side suit is clubs. Hand a) is more common, but hand b) is more slam suitable.
If opener has a supporting honor in clubs, even the queen, he should now show it even with a minimum. 4♣ is a slam trial bid and has top priority. Everything else denies a top honor in clubs.
So 4♣ is not a control bid but a feature. 4♥ shows a minimum with no top honor in clubs. 4♦ is a control bid, opener has more than a minimum but no honor in clubs. A subsequent club control bid shows shortage.
3) Personally I like to play that opener's 2♥ rebid shows an unbalanced hand, which is non standard. With a balanced or semi-balanced hand opener bids 2♦ and shows a 4 card heart suit later if 5♠=4♥=2♦=2♣. But this is not standard.

Rainer Herrmann

[RSClyde]

With the second hand I just splinter. Generally if I don't splinter then I don't have one, or I have a captaincy hand.

[kenrexford]

A couple of notes:

1. I agree with RSClyde that 1♠-2♣, 2♥-3♠ is best (if remembered) as a splinter with real clubs (could be 1-4-4-4) and support for hearts.

2. I agree with rhm that rebidding 2♦ with precisely 5-4-2-2 shape has merits, but I do not play that out of context of a special agreement.

3. If Responder has no splinter available but real clubs, meaning 2-4-2-5 specifically, or not right for a splinter, a simple heart raise works OK, because the hand still is rather balanced.

4. If clubs form a trick source, then a leap to 4♣ works as a fit jump (1♠-2♣, 2♥-4♣), such that you COULD dedicate a jump to 4♥ as a balanced, scattered minimum "fast arrival" call if you want.

5. As a theory proposition, in this sequence I play that ALL spade raises go through 2♠. You can usually make a fit jump or splinter at the next call.

[straube]

You could relay with your balanced hands.

If you don't want to relay, you could say the step one shows a balanced hand and 2N takes the meaning of step one.

For example....

1S-2C, 2H
.....2S-bal
.....2N-clubs and spades
.....3C-clubs
.....3D-clubs and diamonds
.....3H-clubs and hearts

1S-2C, 2D
.....2H-bal
.....2S-clubs and spades
.....2N-clubs and hearts
.....3C-clubs
.....3D-clubs and diamonds

etc

[rogerclee]

Clever fix is to play 2S in this auction agrees either major. Opener describes his hand as usual, and trumps get set the next round.

It's basically the same when you have a spade fit, and much better when you have a heart fit. On top of that, you can use the direct 3H bid to show something else of your choice.

[jallerton]

rogerclee, on 2013-October-16, 11:38, said:

Clever fix is to play 2S in this auction agrees either major. Opener describes his hand as usual, and trumps get set the next round.

It's basically the same when you have a spade fit, and much better when you have a heart fit. On top of that, you can use the direct 3H bid to show something else of your choice.

In other words, you're using step 1 as a relay.

[the hog]

Thanks to those who answered. There are some interesting ideas here. I like Clee's suggestion, but most have merit.

[inquiry]

the hog, on 2013-October-20, 22:05, said:

Thanks to those who answered. There are some interesting ideas here. I like Clee's suggestion, but most have merit.

IT is an interesting thread. I might revisit 1S-2C-2H-3S after reading this thread. However, I will add comments because I play something similar. My 2Clubs is like yours plus it can have a "constructive" up to "limit raise" in the major opened (from 8 to 12 "points"). This means both 1M-2M and 1M-3M are preemptive and weak, and my semi-forcing 1NT NEVER has three card support for opened major.

After 1S, Over 2C, opener can not rebid 2H with "extra values". That is, 2H shows a minimum hand. If opener has extra values (non-minimum) he can respond 2D (artificial) to allow responder to clarify his holding. Opener can rebid 2S or 2H with minimums.

After the 2H rebid, the bidding would go as follows on your two hands.

With the first hand (balanced 13 or so point hand),you would just bid 4H as opposite the known minimum hand, you have no slam ambition. On the second hand (singleton spade, long clubs sure heart fit) you would rebid 3C which shows true 2 over 1 with 5+ clubs and a fit in one of the majors. Opener rebids 3D and opener shows his support in a number of ways (opener may jump to 4H pass/correct) with no control in either minor and minimum hand.

What if opener lacks support for either major? He corrects to 2S with all balanced weak hands (no four hearts). For me the 2H/2S opener rebids (no reverse) are signoff hands opposite the 8=11/12 type hands.

I use this so that when I open "light" I end up in 2M not 3M on modest responding hands. I see that Marten's uses 2C to bail out in 2M with his system (which he opens with as few as 8 hcp I think it was). My method is on the web in the inquiry2over1 blog from years ago.

I use all this to allow really crappy 1S-2S and 1H-2H bids and unburden the "forcing" (well semi-forcing) 1NT.