[straube]

imps, forgot the vul

KJx x QTxxx K9xx

P P P 1C
(1H) dbl (2H) 3S
P ?

First, interested in thoughts on my first response. I could raise clubs or introduce diamonds or...?

Second, do I raise to 4S? Potentially confuse the issue with 4C? Or pass?

[CSGibson]

straube, on 2013-September-16, 14:29, said:

imps, forgot the vul

KJx x QTxxx K9xx

P P P 1C
(1H) dbl (2H) 3S
P ?

First, interested in thoughts on my first response. I could raise clubs or introduce diamonds or...?

Second, do I raise to 4S? Potentially confuse the issue with 4C? Or pass?

---

This is how I understand your problem, in an easier to read format, I hope.

First, I would not have doubled playing standard methods where X implies exactly 4 spades. I would have bid 2C.

I don't think it is possible for me to extricate myself from this mess. I bid 4S, and hope the moysian is right.

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-September-16, 14:29, said:

imps, forgot the vul

KJx x QTxxx K9xx

P P P 1C
(1H) dbl (2H) 3S
P ?

First, interested in thoughts on my first response. I could raise clubs or introduce diamonds or...?

Second, do I raise to 4S? Potentially confuse the issue with 4C? Or pass?

I think a lot of people are going to find the post very confusing. Like Chris, I am assuming that the hand with 3 spades made the takeout X.

IMO, the X was flawed and it comes down to a choice between an initial 2♣ / 2♦.

[straube]

Yes, the hand with 3 spades (my hand) made the negative double.

[MrAce]

I can live with DBL, it ain't that bad especially if pd is aware that we do that sometimes.

Your pd has clubs+spades+3 or 4 hearts and an unbalanced hand which is not good enough to bid 4♠ but better than 2♠, it can be as low as

AQxx Jxxx x AQJx

AQxx Qxx x AQxxx

Qxxx Axx x AQJxx

And those are not even 3♠ for every one, 2♠ ers will outnumber the 3♠ ers i am sure in a poll.

I open very light so coming from pass pd knows i don't even have a balanced 11 let alone an unbalanced one.. One of the benefits of opening light is clear definition of a passed hand. So i can pretty much use 4♥ here as choice of games if it means this, otherwise i will bid 4♣. 5♣ is almost as likely as 4♠ if not more, all our values seem to be working for pd except ♦ Q and it is IMPs. And it is not hard for pd to figure 4♣ is natural knowing that we are short in hearts,

If i am playing this hand with someone that i am not familiar with, i would just bid 5♣ rather than 4♠

[straube]

Isn't there a chance partner has a balanced 18 with some heart values she's downgraded? I mean her holding four+ clubs is very likely but it seems betting against myself to introduce a Moysian possibility and then commit to 5C. 4C I understand if she can read what I'm doing; seems a lot to ask.

I agree with Chris about 2C. I was going to respond 1D but I don't like 2D here with such a flexible hand and poor suit...unless 2D could be a fit bid...we had no such agreement.

I think double has chances to win though, even if it's not systemic. We might be better off in a 4-3 fit with my hand taking the heart tap rather than a 3C or even (unlikely) 2C contract.

The main reason I posted this was whether I should bid 4S after partner's jump to 3S. I've got a decent 9-ct and deducted a couple of points for not having my promised fourth spade, but partner thought 4S was clear...having chosen to double to begin with. I agree with her, but I wanted some other opinions.

[Fluffy]

Partner must have 5 clubs the way I play.

[rmnka447]

RESPONDER'S 1st RESPONSE

Normally, a negative double is for takeout and normally shows 4 cards in any unbid major. This is especially true over a 1 ♥ overcall because it lets you differentiate between a 4 card or 5+ card ♠ holding. You double with 4 cards and bid 1 ♠ with 5 or more. This enables opener to know when it's OK to raise with 3 ♠s.

There are a couple exceptions to having the unbid major after an overcall.

One is where you have a decent long suit but don't quite have the values to make a free bid with it at the 2 level. For example, if your hand was slightly different -- ♠ KJx ♥ x ♦ QJ10xxx ♣ Kxx, you don't have the values to bid 2 ♦ directly after the 1 ♥ overcall [e.g. 1 ♣ -(1 ♥) - 2 ♦]. That would show ♦ and about opening bid values. So you make a negative double and hope to bid ♦s on the next round if partner bids ♠s. When you this kind of negative double, you need some length and quality in the suit you bid as there's no guarantee partner will have a good fit for your suit.

So with the actual hand you held, you don't have 4 cards in the unbid major or a long enough, good enough ♦ suit to double and than bid ♦. With a singleton ♥ -- no stopper, bidding 1 NT is not possible. So almost by default, you come to a 2 ♣ raise showing about 5-9 points and 4+ ♣.

Another exception is if the bidding would have gone 1 ♣ - (1 ♦), then a negative double guarantees 4 or more cards in each of the unbid majors. Also, after a minor opening and minor overcall {e.g. 1 ♣ - (2 ♦), or 1 ♦ - (2 ♣)), a negative double guarantees holding 4+ cards in at least one major, but not necessarily both.

OPENER'S REBID

Opener normally doesn't rebid in the unbid major unless holding at least 4+ cards in the suit. A minimum rebid in the major shows a minimum hand (12-14). A jump in the major shows a good hand (16-18). And a cue of the opponent's suit, normally shows an even bigger hand and implies holding a control in their suit.

In the actual auction under discussion, opener jumped to 3 ♠ over the opponent's raise to 2 ♥. So partner should be showing the 16-18 point hand with 4+ ♠s.

WHAT NEXT (DO YOU BID FURTHER?)

Well, you hold 9 point hand opposite a 16-18 point hand for partner. So between your hands there ought to be enough stuff for a game.

But the worrying thing is that you might only be on a 7 card ♠ fit (known as a Moysian fit).

A key factor in playing such fits is if the opponents can force the 4 card trump hand to ruff. If they can, then it may cause partner to lose control of the trump suit. (Remember holding 7 cards in a suit, the opponents cards are more likely to break 4-2 (48%) than 3-3 (36%)). But the suit they are most likely to try and force in is ♥, where you hold a singleton. So being able to take a ruff in the short (3 card) trump hand usually makes it OK to play in the 4-3 fit.

I think it's right for you to bid 4 ♠ with your hand.

[MrAce]

straube, on 2013-September-16, 16:51, said:

Isn't there a chance partner has a balanced 18 with some heart values she's downgraded? I mean her holding four+ clubs is very likely but it seems betting against myself to introduce a Moysian possibility and then commit to 5C. 4C I understand if she can read what I'm doing; seems a lot to ask.

If you think it is a lot to ask pd to count to 13 and have average common sense, then u may have a point. Since it is not too much to ask from an average player, i do not understand your point. One of the things i really dislike is to make bad bids with the excuse of "pd would not have understood had i made the right bid" Especially when the right bid is natural and not too complicated or fancy type of bid.

The way you started with DBL shows you do not require % 100 4 card spades for the initial neg dbl. And unless your pd is Kenrexford , 4♣ is not something hard to read, really. If she has balanced 18 downgraded values she always bids 4♠ and if she does have unbalanced hand and would like to bid 5♣ we will be more than happy, and if she can not read, after all, you still will be playing 4♠, with nothing lost compared to bidding 4♠ now.

I am obviously not trying to improve 3♠ part score to 4♣ part score. If pd is thinking so, then we have much more things to discuss before it comes to discuss this specific hand with her.