[PhilG007]

You hold the hand below as dealer:-

♠AKx
♥AQx
♦KJx
♣Jxxx

You are playing SAYC 15-17 NT 5 card majors,red suit transfers.
What is your bid if a)non vul b) vul?
and if playing a)teams b) MP pairs?

(I actually held this hand in an event)

[mr1303]

1C. All forms. Intending to bid 2NT (18-19) on my next go. If p raises that to 4NT I pass.

[billw55]

mr1303, on 2013-September-13, 08:31, said:

1C. All forms. Intending to bid 2NT (18-19) on my next go. If p raises that to 4NT I pass.

Agree. Although I would not begrudge a partner who downgraded into a 1NT opener for the 4333 shape and dubious ♣J.

[eagles123]

1 club followed by 2N seems clear playing 15/17 NT?

[neilkaz]

mr1303, on 2013-September-13, 08:31, said:

1C. All forms. Intending to bid 2NT (18-19) on my next go. If p raises that to 4NT I pass.

Yes, exactly. I'd not downgrade this as it isn't bad enough and I don't care that K&R says it is worth 16.25 pts as K&R doesn't like balanced hands very much.

[wyman]

1C. I don't consider this close to a downgrade.

[Endymion77]

Looks OK for 1C to me, it's a hand with 6 controls. If I need a swing at MPs, I might open 1NT though.

[TylerE]

1♣ Never downgrade to 1N.

[stevenagy]

I really hate 4333, and will deduct a full point from evaluating hands with that shape, so 1NT for me. Maybe make a few of those xs to Ts, especially in clubs, and I'll bump it back up, though.

[1eyedjack]

I have been opening these hands 1N in robot tourneys. Seems to work quite well

[wyman]

1eyedjack, on 2013-September-13, 12:50, said:

I have been opening these hands 1N in robot tourneys. Seems to work quite well

I also routinely open the "wrong" minor in robot tourneys, but I don't advocate it at the table

[1eyedjack]

wyman, on 2013-September-13, 13:12, said:

I also routinely open the "wrong" minor in robot tourneys, but I don't advocate it at the table

I think that there is a difference.

Opening the wrong minor works quite well because it deceives, in an environment where there is no scope for implicit agreements.

I find that opening 1N works quite well on these hands because it gets me into the right contract more often.

There may be a small element of gain by the opponents not expecting you to have an 18th point, but my gut feel is that this is the lesser effect.

[wyman]

Well it was a little tongue-in-cheek.

But I'd also argue that there is some similarity. basically, gib is bad, and taking decision-making away from gib is a good thing. Gib can bid over 1n way better (and opps are shut out more) than it can over 1c (or 1c-2n) -- especially if opps come in. With a regular partner, I don't fear the nonsense that gib perpetrates.

Edit: my point is just that it doesn't surprise me that starting w 1n produces good results w gib, and I don't think that's strong evidence that downgrading this hand is sound in general.

[PhilKing]

Bad shape - check.

Terrible intermediates - check.

Weak longest suit - check.

Overrated by sims - check.

1NT.

(Caveat - don't downgrade if both opponents are weak or if you have a big lead).

[mikeh]

While I sometimes downgrade, I would never downgrade this hand.

For those arguing that 4333 is a poor shape, I agree but remember we are discussing a balanced hand here: 4333 is a common shape for notrump bidding. Are we seriously suggesting that we downgrade routine 15 counts to 14 just because they are 4333? Are you disclosing this on your CC?

To me, one considers downgrading when:

1. we have short suit honours: KQ tight is terrible, QJ tight is worse
2. we have a disproportionate number of Q's and J's and relatively few Aces and Kings (controls)
3. there are no reasons to feel good about the hand, countering the bad things

Here, we have MORE controls than average for an 18 count hand, not fewer. We have no horrible short suit holdings. In short, the news isn't all bad, and we should reserve downgrading for the small minority of hands on which there is nothing but bad news.

I see this as a no-brainer 1♣ then 2N, and would consider any other approach to be an attempt to play against the field and, more importantly, against the odds.

I remember the first time I studied Meckwell's WBF methods....I paraphrase (this was in 1999 after all): 'Frequent upgrades, rare downgrades'.

Now few of us have their judgment or skill but I commend this as a healthy attitude at the table.

[suleiman22]

I read this and see a surprising amount of people opening one club, a bid I would not usually make with this type of hand. This hand seems like a perfect 1NT hand for many reasons as in PhilKing's post. Am I missing something? Why are you guys bidding one club? Please explain- thanks!
Suleiman

[mycroft]

Because I don't open 15-17 NTs when I have 18 high.

Okay, KQJ QJ85 AJ AJ43 maybe. Maybe.

[suleiman22]

Hmm. Interesting. Thanks for sharing!
Suleiman

[1eyedjack]

mycroft, on 2013-September-23, 18:01, said:

Because I don't open 15-17 NTs when I have 18 high.

Okay, KQJ QJ85 AJ AJ43 maybe. Maybe.

Wow. With 19 high?

[Cyberyeti]

I can live with either opener, more likely to open 1N at pairs.

As an aside, I hate having to rebid 2N on these hands, playing a weak no trump and wide range 1N rebid as I do, I like being able to open 1♣ and rebid 1N.