[Hanoi5]

All red, Mp's, third hand opens 1♣ and you hold:

♠987x
♥AQTx
♦QJ
♣KTx

(Pa)-Pa-(1♣)-???

What do you do?

[mike777]

I assume my options are pass or X

I x but have no issue with pass other than I wont act later.

[Free]

I used to pass with these, but I've learned to Double. ♦QJ is great support, even if we'd end up in a 4-2 fit.

[PhilKing]

Play the double of 1♣ as showing a Polish club. Remove 1♦ to 1♥. This can be strong, but is consistent with a hand like this.

[MrAce]

I'd DBL and pass 1♦

[Fluffy]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-18, 01:11, said:

Play the double of 1♣ as showing a Polish club. Remove 1♦ to 1♥. This can be strong, but is consistent with a hand like this.

Not sure what you mean with the remove part, if double is polish club don't you have to bid 1♦ with 4441/4351 11-17?

[PhilKing]

Fluffy, on 2013-July-18, 02:38, said:

Not sure what you mean with the remove part, if double is polish club don't you have to bid 1♦ with 4441/4351 11-17?

OK not quite the full Polish. I did play against a Polish pair recently who went the whole hog, so a 1M response showed 8+ and all weak hands (and some strong) bid 1♦.

My preference is to respond naturally (at the 1 level at any rate - 2 level+ = Stayman and transfers), but doubler continues "Polish" after 1♦.

[gwnn]

I'd double and pass diamonds, I'm not as sophisticated as PhilKing If I understand you correctly, Phil, 1C-x-p-2D; p-2H is still strong right (well 2D denies a 4-card major so kind of a silly question)? Anything else to know about this?

[PhilKing]

gwnn, on 2013-July-18, 03:14, said:

I'd double and pass diamonds, I'm not as sophisticated as PhilKing If I understand you correctly, Phil, 1C-x-p-2D; p-2H is still strong right (well 2D denies a 4-card major so kind of a silly question)? Anything else to know about this?

2♦ is a transfer to hearts. 10+ points 5+ hearts. It has to be kepts up to strength because we double a loose club with 4243 13 counts, for instance.

[Fluffy]

I had heard of a 'lebensohl' 1♦ before, I guess polish club continuations are ok, but I think the strong hand with clubs has to be changed to something else.

I don't like transfers, I want opener to be on lead.

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2013-July-18, 11:05, said:

I had heard of a 'lebensohl' 1♦ before, I guess polish club continuations are ok, but I think the strong hand with clubs has to be changed to something else.

Nowadays Lebensohl gets everywhere. As I was learning the game (way before I ever heard of Lebensohl) the method was called Herbert negative. It was part of my inspiration for using a "Lebensohl-like" 1NT response to a take-out double of 1♦♥♠ as a junior, trying to split ranges and shapes more effectively. Noone else liked it so I stopped developing the idea.

[helene_t]

1nt as negative is nice if you don't have a natural 1nt overcall available . then the 15-17 bal can double and pass the negative . of course this means that you use the negative only with balancedish hands .

[helene_t]

Phil's system is known as inverse phantom club

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-18, 01:11, said:

Play the double of 1♣ as showing a Polish club. Remove 1♦ to 1♥. This can be strong, but is consistent with a hand like this.

What would be your upper limit for a 1♥ bid?

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2013-July-19, 04:06, said:

What would be your upper limit for a 1♥ bid?

21, I guess. It's just like opening 1♥ playing 4-card majors, except more is known about responder's hand.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-19, 05:02, said:

21, I guess. It's just like opening 1♥ playing 4-card majors, except more is known about responder's hand.

It's not that much like opening 1♥. When you bid 1♥-2♥ or 1♥-1NT, the player in fourth seat doesn't know that his partner has an opening hand, and he doesn't have a penalty double available.

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2013-July-19, 05:45, said:

It's not that much like opening 1♥. When you bid 1♥-2♥ or 1♥-1NT, the player in fourth seat doesn't know that his partner has an opening hand, and he doesn't have a penalty double available.

I don't see how they can exploit this weakness in my system over 1♣ without just creating frequent problems for themselves.

And just because the max is 21, responder is not moving with four points and three hearts without a useful feature on top.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-19, 06:59, said:

I don't see how they can exploit this weakness in my system over 1♣ without just creating frequent problems for themselves.

Responder passes with a balanced 11-count, then (noting his ♥K10xx), passes again over 1♥. Then he doubles the final contract. I know there's a risk that 1♥ will be passed out, but the upside probably justifies it.

How prominently is this displayed on your convention card? This is the sort of thing that works better in practice than in theory, because unprepared opponents would probably reveal that they have values.

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2013-July-19, 07:23, said:

How prominently is this displayed on your convention card? This is the sort of thing that works better in practice than in theory, because unprepared opponents would probably reveal that they have values.

The sequence 1♣-x is described. Specific seat 6 scenarios are not described - there isn't room for second round actions, surely. 1♥ is alerted. Equally, we could float a diamond against players that play pass then double as 10+ balanced and have it clearly marked on their card (which they should, since the pass is a common first round action).

Strangely, we played the countermeasure you describe for a while (pass then double 10+ balanced), but have abandoned it. I doubt whether trapping again over 1♥ is percentage with 11 points, though, since the deck has to be split 5, 12, 12 to have much chance of a bigger fish.

[Winstonm]

I pass.

I don't see a compelling reason to mis-describe my hand.