[Dale57]

IMPs.

---

How does the auction proceed? Once upon a time, West would respond 2♠ showing 8+ HCP and 5+ spades.

[EricK]

I don't see why these days you can't bid 2♠. Then on the next round 3♥.

[inquiry]

 Dale57, on 2013-July-10, 15:03, said:

IMPs.

---

How does the auction proceed? Once upon a time, West would respond 2♠ showing 8+ HCP and 5+ spades.

Even today, some would respond 2♠ to a forcing 2♣ opening bid. However, most people go with a 2♦ "waiting bid" to allow opener to show his hand type. A frequent rebid will be 2NT, where you can transfer into spades and then mover towards slam.

[Cyberyeti]

 inquiry, on 2013-July-10, 15:23, said:

Even today, some would respond 2♠ to a forcing 2♣ opening bid. However, most people go with a 2♦ "waiting bid" to allow opener to show his hand type. A frequent rebid will be 2NT, where you can transfer into spades and then mover towards slam.

There's a good reason for not doing this, is 2♣-2♦-2N-3♥-3♠-4♥ forcing ? and are you 100% sure ? There are hands (Kx, A10xx, AKQ, AQJx for example) where 6♠ is not where you want to be, and if you can't show both suits with confidence, you may be committed. Depending on exactly what your 2N range is, there are hands where 6♥ is better than 6N or 7♥ is playable and a lot better than 7♠/N. Also there is no guarantee partner won't rebid 3m, and then you're way better off having started with 2♠.

I'd start with 2♠ then follow up with 3♥.

[gnasher]

I think it's clearly right to respond 2♠. 2♣-2♠;3♦-3♥ is a much better start to the auction than 2♣-2♦;3♦-3♠.

[aguahombre]

This totally depends on what a 2C opener looks like.

We are not worried about 2C-2D-3D, because it is such a monster 1-suiter.
We are not worried about 2C-2D-2N, because we have Stayman and Smolen (not true puppet, but sort of Mikeh style).
We sure as heck wouldn't be worried about opener rebidding 2M or 3C, either.

[mikeh]

 gnasher, on 2013-July-10, 15:46, said:

I think it's clearly right to respond 2♠. 2♣-2♠;3♦-3♥ is a much better start to the auction than 2♣-2♦;3♦-3♠.

It depends on methods.

If I sat down with almost all of the good to expert players with whose games I am familiar, and held KJx A AKQJxxx Ax, my rebid over 2♠ would be a simple, direct 7N. Now, I might make it, when they don't lead a spade, but whoever has the spade A is going to double....rho as lightner and lho because he is about to lead it.

I suspect that your experience would be fundamentally different: your partners would know that they need to keycard in spades, while mine would know it was unnecessary (and even if they chose to do so, they'd be left guessing which error I have made: screwing up my 2♠ call or getting confused over 4N).

One can argue that on this hand-type it is better to be able to bid 2♠ by agreement than to be forced to bid 2♦ but in NA, the overwhelmingly common approach is that 2♠ promises 2 of the top 3 cards in the suit. It is surely better to stay within one's methods, inferior tho you may think they are, than it is to perpetrate an intentional misbid and hope to recover later.

Btw, in response to Ben's post, should partner bid the hoped-for 2N over my 2♦, I wouldn't transfer. I need to show my hearts as well, since there are hands on which we belong in hearts: almost anytime partner is 2=4 majors with Ax or Kx in spades.

I would use smolen, eventually using keycard if he fits spades (3 or 4 cards). What I'd do if he showed hearts gets complex and I won't try to define it here, but I doubt that I'd let him out below slam. If he denied the majors, I'd probably pull in my horns and just invite slam due the misfit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Dale57, on 2013-July-10, 15:03, said:

IMPs.

---

How does the auction proceed?

2C - 2D! ( waiting, NO 5+ card suit w/ TWO of the top 3 )
2NT - 3C ( regular Stayman )
3D ( no 4 card Major )
.... - 3H ( Smolen, ostensibly 5s/4h )
3NT ( no 3 cards ♠ )
.... - 4H ( TEXAS-over-Smolen, showing 6s/4h )
4S - 4NT ( RKCB; etc )

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2013-July-10, 16:30, said:

It depends on methods.

If I sat down with almost all of the good to expert players with whose games I am familiar, and held KJx A AKQJxxx Ax, my rebid over 2♠ would be a simple, direct 7N. Now, I might make it, when they don't lead a spade, but whoever has the spade A is going to double....rho as lightner and lho because he is about to lead it.

I suspect that your experience would be fundamentally different: your partners would know that they need to keycard in spades, while mine would know it was unnecessary (and even if they chose to do so, they'd be left guessing which error I have made: screwing up my 2♠ call or getting confused over 4N).

One can argue that on this hand-type it is better to be able to bid 2♠ by agreement than to be forced to bid 2♦ but in NA, the overwhelmingly common approach is that 2♠ promises 2 of the top 3 cards in the suit. It is surely better to stay within one's methods, inferior tho you may think they are, than it is to perpetrate an intentional misbid and hope to recover later.

Btw, in response to Ben's post, should partner bid the hoped-for 2N over my 2♦, I wouldn't transfer. I need to show my hearts as well, since there are hands on which we belong in hearts: almost anytime partner is 2=4 majors with Ax or Kx in spades.

I would use smolen, eventually using keycard if he fits spades (3 or 4 cards). What I'd do if he showed hearts gets complex and I won't try to define it here, but I doubt that I'd let him out below slam. If he denied the majors, I'd probably pull in my horns and just invite slam due the misfit.

This is silly, are you really saying that partner with 8 or 9 to the Q109 and 2 KQs has to respond 2♦ not 2♠ ?

I'm sure you're going to really enjoy this auction when partner who was going to rebid 3♣ with KJ, Ax, AK AQJxxxx (or was it A, A109x, A, AQJ109xx or AK, Ax, AJ, AJ1098xx) hears the 4♦ bid from the man with an enormous number of them on his right. You're in a better position if partner's responded 2♠.

[mike777]

sure I would start with 2d or 4s, I am not going to design a system of responses to deal with some extremely rare 9 card suit holding by responder after a 2c opener.

[aguahombre]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-10, 16:56, said:

This is silly, are you really saying that partner with 8 or 9 to the Q109 and 2 KQs has to respond 2♦ not 2♠ ?

Yes, it is what he is saying, and no it is not silly to have agreements whereby bids mean something other than what you want them to mean..and not silly to stay out of 2C opener's way with a waiting bid when you don't have a hand which fits another systemic response.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-10, 16:56, said:

This is silly, are you really saying that partner with 8 or 9 to the Q109 and 2 KQs has to respond 2♦ not 2♠ ?

I'm sure you're going to really enjoy this auction when partner who was going to rebid 3♣ with KJ, Ax, AK AQJxxxx (or was it A, A109x, A, AQJ109xx or AK, Ax, AJ, AJ1098xx) hears the 4♦ bid from the man with an enormous number of them on his right. You're in a better position if partner's responded 2♠.

My eyesight isn't what it used to be, so I may have misread your post.

Are you suggesting that I was posting on how to respond to 2♣ with Q109xxxxxx KQ void KQ??????

If so, please point me to where I mentioned that pipedream fantasy of a hand in my post?

You're apparently from the UK. I have no idea who you really are, and no interest in knowing, but I suspect you have limited, if any, experience in NA or playing against a lot of NA experts. My view is that if you had two NA experts sit down for a game, with little experience playing together and a discussion of '2/1, strong 1N', most would expect that a positive suit response would show a 5 card suit with 2 or 3 of the top 3 honours.

The fact that in the UK a similar pair would assume that the requirements would be different isn't, despite your personal views of the matter, proof that your way is the better.

There will be hands on which one approach works better than the other and vice versa. Indeed, had you actually understood my post, I suspect that you might have seen that I recognized that this hand type was one on which the UK approach might well be more effective.

The OP asked a question. Andy made a post that reflected what I took as a standard UK type of method. I pointed out that one couldn't actually answer the OP unless one understood what agreements were in place, which seemed and seems to me to be an appropriate point since other posters had clearly been of the view that a positive response promised 2/3 top cards.

Where you get from my pointing out that there are regional variances in standard agreements to imagining I was describing my approach holding 8 or 9 spades to the Q109 and two side KQ holdings is beyond my ability to discern.

[Stephen Tu]

I don't really see the advantage of promising 2/3 top honors for the suit response. When do you really gain?

So you get to skip keycard sometimes when partner bids 2s when you hold a top honor and fit. So what? You bid 2c-2s-7nt, other team that doesn't have the requirement bids 2c-2s-3s-?-4nt-?-7nt, you haven't really gained anything? You don't get bonus points for having a shorter auctions.

OTOH if the responder with a good hand but without 2/3 honors is forced to bid 2d all the time, the auction goes 2c-2d-3m-3s you are a round behind in describing responder's shape, and are running out of below-game forcing bids before responder has really shown all their features.

[aguahombre]

The people who find it a problem when partner rebids 3m after the waiting bid have partners who open 2c and rebid 3m more often than we do ---and on hands with which we would not.

So, that brings us back to the answers being subject to system...not to right and wrong.

Our 2C-then 3m has 10+ tricks looking to find if more tricks are available, and could care less about finding strain with Responder's topless 6-bagger.

[Stephen Tu]

 aguahombre, on 2013-July-10, 19:18, said:

The people who find it a problem when partner rebids 3m after the waiting bid have partners who open 2c and rebid 3m more often than we do ---and on hands with which we would not.

I don't see how this is a valid argument. Even if your 3m rebid is less frequent, what advantage have you gained by forcing responder to bid 2d the first round, which shows barely anything, vs. being able to bid a major with a good hand? Now on the second round, you get to show a second suit, or a sixth card in the major, whereas if you were forced to bid 2d, your first call only shows 5 cd suit, and you may have only promised more than a double neg at that point, instead of already having shown slam invitational+ range strength.

Basically you have wasted a round of bidding, and I don't see when you are going to gain a compensating advantage. Maybe this mattered more before RKC; the times when you are excited by partner's suit bid is usu when you have some sort of fit for it, and it wasn't possible to find out about the trump Q. These days you can just raise then you can confirm 2/3 honors or not. IMO since 2c is so much stronger hand on average, it is more common for responder to have just 1 top honor, and opener has 2 and a fit, and it is not very useful to have these 2/3 top honor restrictions which can waste bidding rounds.

[aguahombre]

Stephen, my post isn't a valid argument; you are correct. It is a statement about what we prefer within the context we prefer, and explains why we prefer it.

We haven't wasted a round of bidding which would have been helpful when holding (say) the OP hand, and 3m is the rebid by opener --because of the nature of the 3m rebid itself. The argument about whether your partnership has done so is reserved for you and your partner.

[Stephen Tu]

You seem to be claiming that in your style that you always play in the minor. I just don't see how this can be. Are you restricting 2c-?-3m openers to 8 card suits? Even if you have some 7 bagger, you can construct hands where you are say 3-2-1-7 or whatever, extremely strong, but your suit might only be AKQTxxx or something, and doesn't run opposite partner's void or stiff, you'd rather play the 6-3 spade fit.

And if you can be very strong 3316 or 2416, then finding a major fit can be key to find the extra trick for slam. I remember a recent team match, other team had some silly system which demanded cues after showing a GF minor one suiter, no way to show a suit, with CAKQTxx they ended up in clubs with the J not falling, down 1, whereas we were in the icy 6S after finding a 5-3 major fit. Now this one hand proves nothing, the other team had a crippled system, but finding fits is important. Or are you going to refuse to open 2c on something like AKx x AKQ AKQTxx? Or x AKxx AK AKQTxx?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Stephen Tu, on 2013-July-10, 18:08, said:

I don't really see the advantage of promising 2/3 top honors for the suit response. When do you really gain?

So you get to skip keycard sometimes when partner bids 2s when you hold a top honor and fit. So what? You bid 2c-2s-7nt, other team that doesn't have the requirement bids 2c-2s-3s-?-4nt-?-7nt, you haven't really gained anything? You don't get bonus points for having a shorter auctions.

OTOH if the responder with a good hand but without 2/3 honors is forced to bid 2d all the time, the auction goes 2c-2d-3m-3s you are a round behind in describing responder's shape, and are running out of below-game forcing bids before responder has really shown all their features.

After 2D-waiting , Responder can show his 5+ card suit next ( usually at the 3-level ) -- w/o 2 of the top 3 -- if he cannot support Opener's suit.

[chasetb]

 Stephen Tu, on 2013-July-10, 18:08, said:

I don't really see the advantage of promising 2/3 top honors for the suit response. When do you really gain?

So you get to skip keycard sometimes when partner bids 2s when you hold a top honor and fit. So what? You bid 2c-2s-7nt, other team that doesn't have the requirement bids 2c-2s-3s-?-4nt-?-7nt, you haven't really gained anything? You don't get bonus points for having a shorter auctions.

OTOH if the responder with a good hand but without 2/3 honors is forced to bid 2d all the time, the auction goes 2c-2d-3m-3s you are a round behind in describing responder's shape, and are running out of below-game forcing bids before responder has really shown all their features.

I'm surprised at this post. You REALLY can't see any advantage? Then let me teach you a thing or two.

First, you usually want the strong hand to describe and declare, so you don't want to waste any space unless you have to. Hearts isn't so bad, but swap the Heart and Diamond suits in the example hand, and then hear the auction go 2♣-2♠, 3♥. You just pre-empted opener and wasted a whole lotta space. Taking this a bit further, if you swapped the Spade suit in the example hand with a minor suit, do you STILL want responder to show that suit and respond 3m???

Second, how about when opener has a balanced hand? You wrong-side the contract, and possibly get the partnership too high. It's pretty hard on this hand, but let's replace the K♣ with a spot. Next thing you know, you end up in 5♠ -1 because you are missing the AK♠ and the finesse if off, or a ruff, or the J♠ is off. Standard bidding won't get that high, since the 2♣ bidder will know partner has long but lousy Spades and should be able to stop in 4.

Third, even if opener has a minor hand (which seems likely), the auction isn't an issue if it goes 2♣-2♦, 3♦. When I bid 3♠, partner knows I have 5+ Spades, but not the best suit. It's not a suit where I want partner to raise on xx(x). Now if the auction starts 2♣-2♠, partner can always raise later on A/K stiff, or even xx if it seems like a misfit. Also, this might not apply for you, but when my partner bids 3m, (s)he has almost no interest in a Major.

[kael chi]

Try to transfer to S by 2C opener