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False Claim on opponent's lead (EBU)

#1 User is offline   JohnLW 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 17:12



East declares in 3NT at pairs scoring.
South leads 5th highest won by North with the King who returns the 10 covered by the Jack and ducked by South and East now plays two rounds of

South is now on lead with the following cards remaining:


At this point East claims the rest - having forgotton the A is still out.

How should the Director rule - (it can be assumed that Declarer will avoid blocking suits)

Without the claim the only reasonable way of making a trick would be to lead the A. With the claim their are other possibilities....
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 17:51

If South takes his Ace, East has the rest of the tricks. If South leads something else then East will get in. Is he a bad enough player to carelessly play the Q when he has nine top tricks (4 spades, 2 hearts, 3 clubs) without touching diamonds? That's something the TD at the table will have to judge.

The worst possible scenario for East is that South leads something, East gets in, takes two top hearts and then leads the Q. If South takes his Ace, he gets that and 2 heart tricks, and if he leads a diamond, North gets the 9. That would be down two, but I don't buy it. I think that would be beyond careless, even for a beginner.

If South claims he would lead something other than a diamond, hoping to get more tricks later, I'd be tempted to rule he gets no tricks.
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#3 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 17:55

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-December-06, 17:51, said:

If South takes his Ace, East has the rest of the tricks. If South leads something else then East will get in. Is he a bad enough player to carelessly play the Q when he has nine top tricks (4 spades, 2 hearts, 3 clubs) without touching diamonds? That's something the TD at the table will have to judge.

The worst possible scenario for East is that South leads something, East gets in, takes two top hearts and then leads the Q. If South takes his Ace, he gets that and 2 heart tricks, and if he leads a diamond, North gets the 9. That would be down two, but I don't buy it. I think that would be beyond careless, even for a beginner.

If South claims he would lead something other than a diamond, hoping to get more tricks later, I'd be tempted to rule he gets no tricks.


beyond careless for a beginner? declarer thinks his q of D is a winner we're told effectively. there's no reason he shouldn't try to cash that as opposed to his other 9 top ones. bonanza for the defence then imo.
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#4 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 17:59

Is he a beginner? That's not in evidence.
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#5 User is offline   c_corgi 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 18:46

Beginner or otherwise, there is no reason not to cash the QD if he thinks it is a winner. However, in this layout it feels unlikely that declarer will actually cash the remaining tricks in an unsuccessful order: players tend to play their long suits which they have worked to establish rather than those which opponents attack. As North I would inscribe 10 tricks into the result box and resist atempts by partner or director to stop me. As director, I'm not sure I can justify imposing my guess about which of a range of theoretically equal options declarer might choose upon the result. I think I have to rule 1 down, but I wont overrule N/S if they propose a more reasonable outcome. I would like to assign a weighted score based on the probability of the AD not being cashed and the QD being attempted (which I estimate is low, for both the 8 and 9 trick outcomes) and including a portion of 11 tricks, but I don't think this option is available.
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 19:30

View Postc_corgi, on 2012-December-06, 18:46, said:

Beginner or otherwise, there is no reason not to cash the QD if he thinks it is a winner. However, in this layout it feels unlikely that declarer will actually cash the remaining tricks in an unsuccessful order: players tend to play their long suits which they have worked to establish rather than those which opponents attack. As North I would inscribe 10 tricks into the result box and resist atempts by partner or director to stop me. As director, I'm not sure I can justify imposing my guess about which of a range of theoretically equal options declarer might choose upon the result. I think I have to rule 1 down, but I wont overrule N/S if they propose a more reasonable outcome. I would like to assign a weighted score based on the probability of the AD not being cashed and the QD being attempted (which I estimate is low, for both the 8 and 9 trick outcomes) and including a portion of 11 tricks, but I don't think this option is available.

No, you can't award a weighted score.

One down on what basis?

Declarer already has two tricks, and he has nine more tricks in the non-diamond suits - 4 spades, 2 hearts, and 3 clubs. If South takes his A, declarer gets ten tricks. If South doesn't take his A, I'm tempted to give declarer eleven tricks. We're told declarer is good enough that he won't block himself — I think then he's good enough to play on spades, pitching two hearts, and then go to the board, which is all good. If I have any doubt of that, benefit of which should go to the other side, it's that I don't know anything about the declarer except that I'm told he won't block himself.

Diamond play on this hand can go several ways. South can take his Ace and lead a diamond. NS will never get another trick. South can lead a low diamond, North will play the nine, East will win the Queen, and NS get no tricks. South can lead a non-diamond, East can win in either hand and take his nine tricks outside diamonds — and NS get no tricks. South can lead a non-diamond, East can win in either hand and eventually lead a diamond from hand. If he leads the Queen, South can take his ace and lead a diamond - two more tricks to NS, nine tricks total to EW. If East leads the 8, South can duck, North gets the nine, and if he leads back a diamond, South gets two more tricks for down one. That seems a bit far-fetched to me, as does the possibility that East will take his two top hearts and then play a diamond, which could, in the worst possible scenario, lead to down three (the two tricks NS already have, three diamonds, and two hearts). How much "benefit of the doubt" should we give to NS?

BTW, IMO it's not enough to say "I have all top tricks", even if you do. Law 68C requires claimer to state the order in which he will play his cards. I wonder why claimers can't seem to learn that?
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#7 User is offline   c_corgi 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 19:43

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-December-06, 19:30, said:

One down on what basis?

Declarer already has two tricks, and he has nine more tricks in the non-diamond suits - 4 spades, 2 hearts, and 3 clubs. If South takes his A, declarer gets ten tricks. If South doesn't take his A, I'm tempted to give declarer eleven tricks. We're told declarer is good enough that he won't block himself — I think then he's good enough to play on spades, pitching two hearts, and then go to the board, which is all good. If I have any doubt of that, benefit of which should go to the other side, it's that I don't know anything about the declarer except that I'm told he won't block himself.


Cashing in the order 2x hearts, 4x spades, QD results in 2 diamonds plus a heart or spade to the defense: 1 down.

How can declarer be "good enough" to choose to cash one "winner" rather than another? There is no technical merit in winning the last 3 tricks with dummy's 3 club winners rather than the QD and 2 clubs.
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 19:48

What makes you think he'll wait until the last three tricks to "cash" his Q? Also, does he think the 8 is a winner?
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#9 User is offline   c_corgi 

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Posted 2012-December-06, 20:34

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-December-06, 19:48, said:

What makes you think he'll wait until the last three tricks to "cash" his Q? Also, does he think the 8 is a winner?


I don't think he will cash it at all, but since he thinks it is a winner it would be reasonable to do so. One of the moments he might choose to do so is trick 11, which is one of the moments where it leads to 1 down.

I don't know if he thought the D8 was a winner because the OP does not tell us. Happily it is of little relevance because, even in the event of declarer having and taking the opportunity to lead diamonds twice, the same results can equally well be reached by other mechanisms.
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#10 User is offline   bixby 

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Posted 2012-December-07, 15:16

Four more tricks to the defense.

It is stated in the OP that declarer forgot the A was out. It's not clear how this is known -- perhaps declarer said so, or perhaps this is just an inference from the fact that declarer thought he had the rest of the tricks.

But if declarer really thinks the A is no longer out, and that the Q is a winner, then it would be perfectly reasonable for declarer to play AK, KA, Q. At that point, South gets A, two hearts, and a diamond to North's 9. It's just lucky for declarer that diamonds are blocked, or the defenders would get yet another trick after that. I'll allow declarer to retain a top spade in hand and a top club in dummy to get the last trick.

"But I would never start running the spades and then switch to diamonds in the middle of them!" Sorry -- we'll never know what you would have done. You might have cashed the two AKs and then claimed without statement. Next time, don't forget which high cards are still out.

I never understand the desire to protect declarers in this situation. If they're careless enough to forget which high cards are out, they might be careless enough to -- gasp -- cash what they think are winners in an unfavorable order.
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#11 User is offline   bixby 

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Posted 2012-December-07, 15:19

Sorry, in the preceding post I should have started the presumed play with South leading a heart or a spade. South leads, e.g., a spade, declarer takes the King, then the top hearts, then a spade back to hand, then the Q.
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#12 User is offline   Sjoerds 

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Posted 2012-December-08, 02:46

Unless there are special arguments to do something different. I would rule south to win the A.
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#13 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2012-December-08, 04:06

I think "normal" play must be for both sides. For South to play a card other than the ace of diamonds, giving declarer the remainder, is not normal, therefore I award one down, the best result for the defenders with the worst normal line for the declarer.
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-08, 10:49

Is it appropriate to ask South what he will do? Law 70B3 does say the TD should "hear the opponents' objections to the claim", but also "the Director's considerations are not limited to the opponents' objections".
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#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-10, 14:27

View Postc_corgi, on 2012-December-06, 19:43, said:

Cashing in the order 2x hearts, 4x spades, QD results in 2 diamonds plus a heart or spade to the defense: 1 down.

How can declarer be "good enough" to choose to cash one "winner" rather than another? There is no technical merit in winning the last 3 tricks with dummy's 3 club winners rather than the QD and 2 clubs.

South (the defender with A75) is on lead. You have to factor that into your assumed line. Do you really think South is going to lead a non-diamond?

Thinking on this some more, I want to go back to square one (the original post) and start over, but I don't have time right now. Later tonight, maybe.
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#16 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-December-10, 15:31

View Postbixby, on 2012-December-07, 15:16, said:

I never understand the desire to protect declarers in this situation. If they're careless enough to forget which high cards are out, they might be careless enough to -- gasp -- cash what they think are winners in an unfavorable order.

I agree. Claim badly? Pay up.

I would only add, it is definitely not normal for declarer to cash part of suit then stop midstream. When cashing out winners, normal is to finish a suit once you start it.

I guess that means I give declarer -1.
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-10, 21:50

Let's go back and look at the OP. The question asked was "How should the director rule?" Let's take this, at least at first, not as "what's the ruling?" but rather "Via what process should the director arrive at his ruling?"

The first point is that the director's job in any ruling situation is to determine the facts. In the OP, we are presented with the following facts:

1. East declares 3NT at pairs scoring. I presume this means "matchpoints" since "pairs" is not a method of scoring.
2. South's opening lead is the 2, won by North's KIng.
3. North returns the 10, East covers with the Jack, and South ducks.
4. East leads (presumably, I don't see how else this could work) the K, South ducks, East leads his low club, and South takes the Ace.
5. At this point, each side has two tricks, and South is on lead.
6. East claims, "having forgotten the Ace of diamonds was still out".

My first question, as TD, is "who called me?" Let's presume South. Here are more questions:

2. What, precisely, did East say when he claimed?
3. Did he face his hand?
4. Did he state a line of play?
5. If he did not state a line of play, did South give him an opportunity to do so before objecting and calling the director?

Suppose (case 1) the answers are "I have the rest" (a common way of claiming), no, no, and yes. Or suppose (case 2) the answer to the fourth question is no. These two cases will lead to different things in the subsequent process. In case 1, declarer did not state a line of play, and will not be given an opportunity to do so. In case 2, declarer's line of play statement was short circuited by South, so he should be given the chance to state a line now — with the caveat that it should be the line he had in mind (if any) when he claimed, with no modification based on South's objection.

Once the director has all the facts, and they are agreed by both parties, he goes to Law 84B: "If the case is clearly covered by a law that prescribes the rectification for the irregularity, he determines that rectification and ensures that it is implemented." There is such a law — Law 70. That law says that the director should:

1. Require claimer to repeat the clarification statement he made at the time of his claim.
2. Hear the opponents’ objections to the claim, but the Director’s considerations are not limited only to the opponents’ objections.

Item 1 here goes back to question 5, and the subsequent discussion in the paragraph below that. If he made no line of play statement, he doesn't get to make one now, unless he was interrupted by South. If he made one, let's hear it.

Item 2 is important. If South's objection is "I have the Ace of Diamonds!" that's one thing. If it's "I have at least one trick" that's a different thing. One could argue that the "but" in item 2 allows (perhaps even requires) the director to consider lines of play that do not start with South taking his Ace of diamonds, and I would agree with "consider", but I don't think it means "let's find whatever line we can, however silly, that gains NS the most tricks". IAC, we're now up to "what's the ruling?" I look at it this way:

1. If South leads his A, he gets a trick, and now East has all the rest — there is no reasonable way he can give away more tricks.
2. If South leads a low diamonds, East will get his Queen, and now he has three possible losers: the T9, and the 8. I don't think "I have the rest" is the same as "all my cards are winners", so I think it would be nuts to play any of these three cards — and he doesn't need to, since the 8 can go on the J, and then the rest of his hand is all winners.
3. If South leads any other suit, East will win in whichever hand is appropriate, both the Q and 8 will go on the JT, the K is good, and again all the cards in East's hand are winners.

In case 1, South gets a trick. In cases 2 and 3, South gets no tricks, unless we impose an irrational line (not taking tricks he knows are winners first) on East. Keep in mind, also, that the OP says East can be expected not to block his suits.

Keep in mind that (a) South is on lead and (b) we don't know precisely what his objection to the claim is.

I suspect South will take his A (case one), in which case I rule one trick to the defense. In case two, I rule no more tricks to the defense. In case three, there are several possibilities:
no tricks to the defense
1 trick to the defense (A)
2 tricks to the defense (A then 9, blocking the suit
3 tricks to the defense (same as 2 tricks but then the 10 — this requires East to take all his spade tricks before leading the Q)
4 tricks to the defense (same as 2 tricks, but East takes his AK before leading the Q
5 tricks to the defense (same as 3 tricks, but in addition to taking his spades, East has to take his two hearts as well).

None of these contemplate that South might lead the Q or J, btw. After all, that might give away a potential trick. Some of these require really stupid (ie, irrational) plays by East. Some require the defense to keep particular cards they aren't like to keep. Bottom line, I might rule South gets his A at trick 13, I might rule he never gets it. Depends on what answers I get to the question I ask (see above).

If the facts aren't agreed by both parties, the director has to decide, based on the balance of probabilities, what the pertinent facts are (Law 85), and then proceed as above.

One other thing. This is a judgement ruling. Law 83 applies, so the TD might tell the players they have the right to appeal, if he believes a review of the ruling "could well be in order".
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-December-11, 16:54

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-December-10, 21:50, said:

Let's go back and look at the OP. The question asked was "How should the director rule?" Let's take this, at least at first, not as "what's the ruling?" but rather "Via what process should the director arrive at his ruling?"

I'll bet anything the OP meant the former. While the latter is a valid literal interpretation of the question, I don't think it's the usual intent.

JohnLW?

Of course, when answering the former question, it's often necessary to answer the latter to provide justification.

#19 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-December-11, 18:59

View Postbarmar, on 2012-December-11, 16:54, said:

I'll bet anything the OP meant the former. While the latter is a valid literal interpretation of the question, I don't think it's the usual intent.

He probably did. My point was that I want to talk about the process. For one thing, it's a way of making sure we don't forget something.
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#20 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2012-December-11, 19:42


JohnlW wrote
"East declares in 3NT at pairs scoring. South is now on lead with the following cards remaining: At this point East claims the rest - having forgotton the A is still out. How should the Director rule - (it can be assumed that Declarer will avoid blocking suits)"

Agree with Bixby: whatever declarer's standard, he has obviously lost the place. Hence the TD can rule that South exits in then declarer plays AK, KA and attempts to cash Q,. This is as sensible line of declarer-play as any other -- given that declarer is convinced AK have been played. The defence then wins A QJ and 9 for two-down. This resolves doubtful points in favour of the NOS. Unless the OP failed to mention some significant fact, any other ruling seems illegal.

The ruling does assume that defenders are allowed to take advantage of declarer's manifest confusion.

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