Thought it was played
#1
Posted 2012-October-31, 16:27
#2
Posted 2012-October-31, 17:14
Merseyside England UK
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#3
Posted 2012-November-01, 05:09
ahydra
#4
Posted 2012-November-01, 10:36
So I can understand how the gap that was left when the 7 was played could make it look like the 3 is in the played position. But I think players should pay more attention; just because the mistake is understandable it doesn't mean we should excuse it.
#5
Posted 2012-November-04, 00:50
ahydra, on 2012-November-01, 05:09, said:
I don't think this is normal at all. From my extremely limited sample, "normal" is for dummy's cards to be played in the same way as everyone else's - i.e. extracted from the hand and placed on the table. So I can easily imagine that if the 4th player wasn't watching the table, then he might think the 3 had been played. I don't think that is a valid excuse though, as he should have been watching.
#6
Posted 2012-November-05, 06:46
ahydra
#7
Posted 2012-November-05, 08:21
ahydra, on 2012-November-05, 06:46, said:
If the table is a bit cramped the card is sometimes placed or held on/over the board.
And of course when declarer is playing the cards, she will usually pull the card closer to herself or place it on the board.
#8
Posted 2012-November-05, 09:06
Of course, we are talking about a defender who did not notice, but suggesting he should know it has or has not been played from where it is on the table seems to me incredible. He is obviously not attending carefully otherwise he would know for certain whether it is played, and he is expected to know whether its position on the table is normal for a played card? I don't think so!
As for a dummy who holds the card in the air I would politely request him to put the card on the table. It is a very annoying but fortunately rare habit.
Of course, all this is irrelevant to the ruling. To play a card, declarer does one thing, dummy does another: neither happened, the card is not played, the defender is 100% at fault.
Merseyside England UK
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Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
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#9
Posted 2012-November-05, 13:30
ahydra, on 2012-November-05, 06:46, said:
We have one player who has does this, I find it annoying.
I should probably say something. He's young (a college student), so it's not a case of trying to teach an old dog new tricks (I've given up on elderly card-snappers).
#10
Posted 2012-November-05, 16:41
bluejak, on 2012-November-05, 09:06, said:
As for a dummy who holds the card in the air I would politely request him to put the card on the table. It is a very annoying but fortunately rare habit.
[...]
Does "holding it in the air" include holding it face up about 1 (or maybe 2) cm above the surface of the table?
I find this rather common when space on the table is limited, and I certainly do not find it annoying.
#11
Posted 2012-November-05, 17:32
Merseyside England UK
EBL TD
Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
#12
Posted 2012-November-06, 03:01
bluejak, on 2012-November-05, 17:32, said:
This is the first time ever that I have heard about anybody having difficulty seeing a card that dummy has lifted 1 or 2 cm above the table surface while holding it steady in that position.
(The standard table size here is 80 by 80 cm. Space can sometimes feel limited as there are more items than just the cards being placed there.)
#13
Posted 2012-November-06, 05:26
Your tables are clearly big enough that the excuse of tables not being big enough to put the card down is laughable.
Merseyside England UK
EBL TD
Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
#14
Posted 2012-November-06, 08:44
bluejak, on 2012-November-06, 05:26, said:
Your tables are clearly big enough that the excuse of tables not being big enough to put the card down is laughable.
You seem to introduce conditions not in issue.
I am not talking about dummy "waiving" his card around in the air, I am talking about the typical play when declarer calls a card, dummy picks it up from the table, holds it steady face up for the about two seconds needed to complete the trick and then quits it (along with the other three players). Incidentally I often see also the other three players holding their cards in a position clearly indicating that the card has been plaid rather than physically placing it face up down on the table when the trick is completed within a couple of seconds. (Most tricks are!)
My experience is that when any player needs the trick to remain faced more than a couple of seconds while considering his future play then all cards "held" are placed down on the table (face up) without any request or comment. And again: You are the only person I have encountered apparently having any problem with this way of playing the cards?
#15
Posted 2012-November-06, 09:50
pran, on 2012-November-06, 08:44, said:
In an early league match I once had my RHO replay and put down every one of their first 6 cards because they had a habit of holding the card turned away from me and waved in a most unsteady way, together with simply placing it face down when playing last to a trick (apart from the card they wanted partner to note as a signal). After this she got the message but there were still a few that caused issues. In the second half of the same team match, one of the ladies also liked to hold her card out but did it steadily so it caused no problem. Except that she would hold it halfway across the table accompanied by a meaningful look when making an important suit preference signal.
This seems to be par for the course amongst players who hold their cards above the table in this manner. So no, David is not alone in finding it annoying on occasion.
#16
Posted 2012-November-06, 10:20
Zelandakh, on 2012-November-06, 09:50, said:
This seems to be par for the course amongst players who hold their cards above the table in this manner. So no, David is not alone in finding it annoying on occasion.
We are discussing two entirely different scenarios. This (and the one David most recently referred to) is not the one I asked David about.
Of course playing your cards in a manner that implies signalling to your partner is illegal but entirely outside the question here.
#17
Posted 2012-November-06, 13:47
pran, on 2012-November-06, 08:44, said:
In England the diamonds are usually coloured orange and the clubs are grey. I must say I prefer the Norwegian approach!
#18
Posted 2012-November-06, 16:26
Do I understand David correct that he in such cases requests players to let go of the card and only touch it again when quitting the trick? Or does he accept that players may indeed hold the card touching or nearly touching the table, i.e. say one centimeter above the table?
A definite answer to this would be interesting.
#19
Posted 2012-November-06, 16:48