[straube]

So in our strong club system, responder needs only 5 QPs to force game and 9 QPs to reject a sign off attempt. Also, when opener (in some cases) is able to describe his pattern to partner, we count 10 as his base for QPs and he needs 14 to reject a sign off. I'm wondering if we're missing some slams here. What are others doing? I'm wondering if 8 for responder and 13 for opener is enough to continue. While it may get us too high sometimes, at other times, we will avoid getting too high because asker won't have to ask for QPs as often. In effect, our minimum totals would lower from 19 now to 18. At 18, on average we would have 28 or 29 hcps between the two hands. Opinions?

[awm]

My approach is similar to yours (4 extra to reject sign off). Keep in mind that relayer already knew how well/poorly the hands meshed when he signed off, and also felt he didnt have safety in 5x or 4nt to investigate.

Slam can make with 18 QP but the hands have to fit well and if they did relayer wouldn't sign off...

[straube]

Thanks for replying.

I'm concerned about missing the 12 opposite 8 sorts of combinations, especially when we have a minor suit fit and are debating whether to risk going past 3N. If shape resolves low enough (3C or 3D say) there's adequate room for the QP ask.

I suppose we could formulate certain rules...like 8 and 13 if shape resolves higher than 3H, but partner doesn't like lots of exceptions.

What would you think of 9 and 14 for the 4D terminator, but 8 and 13 for 3N?

Let me point out, too, that our 1N opening is 14-16 and most of our 17+ balanced hands have 11 or more QPs (i.e. usually a balanced 10 QP hand opens 1N) so the total for both hands would rarely be as few as 18 QPs.

Lastly, partner could use some judgment. If he counted that opener had room to look for 8 QPs and didn't or if he didn't like the look of his hand with those 8 QPs (very flat, no jacks or spot cards), he could pass 3N.

[Zelandakh]

The sign-off issue is one of the reasons that requiring a little more than minimum to go through the relay structure is so effective. So, if for example your 1♣ opening is 16+ and a positive response is 8+, you might bid 16-18 hcp hands naturally (relay breaks) and 19+ hands relay. Now it is easier from Responder's point of view to bid on after a sign-off with, say, 11+ giving 30+ together. I am sure you can convert these numbers to QPs easily enough. The downside of this is giving up on reverse relays and having the unbalanced hand describe to the balanced hand, which I know is something you are very keen on. This is the trade off.

This is basically what I do, except that the ranges are 15-17/18+ and 9-11/12+, and only a few 15-17 hcp hands are included in the 1♣ opener. Basically, I think you can solve this quite easily but in doing so you will probably need to give something else up and that might be a bigger issue than these isolated missed slams.

[dake50]

When you relay that may answer above 3NT,
can you land in 4NT or is that up-going?
That seems to me to be the constraint feared:
ask, then above 3NT with a poor answer can't land.

[straube]

dake50, on 2012-October-25, 18:21, said:

When you relay that may answer above 3NT,
can you land in 4NT or is that up-going?
That seems to me to be the constraint feared:
ask, then above 3NT with a poor answer can't land.

We can land anywhere as long as we break relay. So if the telling hand bids 4S, 4N by captain is a relay.

[straube]

So here's a thought. Previously, responder's base is 5 and he rejects the signoff of 3N at 9. Opener's (1C) base is 10 and he rejects the sign off at 14.

Looking just at 3N sign offs for the moment, have the slave hand add his two longest suits and QPs together. If they total 17 for a responding hand or 22 for a strong club hand, then we reject the sign off.

So say opener has AKxx A AQxxx xxx for a total of 12 QPs and 9 length points or 21...he would respect the sign off. But with AKQx A AQxxx xxx he would bid 4C.

We have to account for shape. Certainly captain is aware, but space is tight and the odds of slam increase a lot more with each extra queen point.

Now for the 4D terminator, probably some adjustment could be made, but usually captain has room to enquire after queen points so it doesn't matter as much.

[straube]

How about this? Let's say opener (the strong club hand) has described his pattern and responder has signed off in 3N. Opener's base (lowest expected QPs or relay points) is 10.

As of now...

3N
.....4C-14
.....4D-15
.....etc

Instead...

3N
.....4C-12
.....4D-13
.....etc

with the proviso that opener is not obligated to show 12 or 13. He can exercise some judgment depending on...

1. Does he have extra shape?
2. Did relay captain have enough room to safely ask queen points? E.g. if shape has been shown at 3C, likely he did.
3. Does he have extra jacks, especially in long suits?
4. Are the honors reinforcing long suits?

Seems like we ought to still have room to explore. For example, after a 4D terminator puppet, opener currently shows 14 QPs with 4S. After a 3N sign off, opener's 4S bid would equate to 15.